1 March 2015 at 22:53 ·
Today as my daughter and I were cycling back from a Bhagavad
Geeta talk, there was this huge procession of Christians with some ten tempo
vans inbetween. The cars escaped, but we had to get off and politely take the
pamphlets they gave. About some 'Healing Day' and how Jesus would save us.
I did not find it funny. I have my Geeta, and my scriptures, and
my million gods, and do not need any other religion to save my soul. My soul
will be handled between my gods and me. In our processions we may make
unforgivable noise, but we do not go giving pamphlets to those profession other
religions ! If they keep doing this, then ghar wapasi begins to sound
reasonable.
Aparna Krishnan
But I will not hold it against Christ. Long,
long ago I was discussing this with a friend, about Christ saying 'I am the Way',
and she told me that maybe Christ meant 'Love is the Way', and the followers
distorted it. I am tempted to think so. But I wish the Christians would think
more about their Christ and his love and compassion ...
Jayshree Shukla
Aww....Aparna I may want to appeal that you
share my views (as political parties often do) or that you share my faith as
those Christians did. As long as they don't force you why should one mind it?
Allah and Jesus and Bhagwan are all one anyway :-)
Sashikala Ananth
I can sympathise Aparna. In adivasi settlements
where i have done some work with NGO's tha attitude is more aggressive and
blatant. I have always felt dehumanised by it.
Aparna Krishnan
Jayashree, I do not mind the muslim from the
mosque coming and waving his peacock far over me as a blessing. I bow to the
blessing there,a nd to the divinity. Here, as of yesterday, I know it is a
dismissal of my Gods as pagan gods, and that I react to strongly. Even if I
forget my own gods most of the time, i will not allow the Other to reduce them
!! And now i understand why those who are more deeply religious than I react
more extremely.
Jayshree Shukla
Yes, of course. But just as long as we bear in
mind that my God vs your God is only semantics in which THE God has no interest
:-) This is only politics of men :-)
Aparna Krishnan
I can understand more and more why the society
took a swing to the Right.
Jayshree Shukla
On a lighter note, I feel like a Christian at
Christmas, a Muslim at Eid and a Hindu at Diwali. If someone gave me a pamphlet,
I would say don't waste it on me. I am yours already. Ye alag baat hai ki hum
sirf kisi ek ke nahin :-)
Vinod Chand
The mind is like a parachute, it only works if it is
open - Quote Anonymous.
Aparna Krishnan
Years in a village taught me that this fundamental
religiousness is the breath of the people. simple, good, poor people. and my
defence of the religion is in a sense the defence of them. Because i know that
the identity of a people if the first thing - ever more than roti, kapda,
makaan.
Aparna Krishnan
my mind is open Vinod Chand - it used to be
trapped in tntellectualisations. but a village opened it for me.
Aparna Krishnan
one needs to look at things sociologically also.
when a community is derided, the community at some point reacts. a few will
react strongly. and religion is not a superficial reality in India, it is the
breath. in my village a left friend came and during vinayaka chaturti at the
pandal started his 'all gods are cheats' bhashan. the village people simply
looked at him as if he was ranting, and went on with their festivities. they
are a wise community. but i would not expect all to hold peace always in the
face of such provocations - though that would be the mature response desirable.
Nityanand Jayaraman
It would be great if religion could be a
private affair. To atheists and agnostics, it doesn't matter whether pamphlets
are given or songs are blared on loudspeakers, it is equally offensive. To say
that one religion is better only because it shouts and does not distribute pamphlets
rings hollow. This is not a matter that needs to appeal solely to the
sensibilities of people professing one or the other religion. It also has to
have some consideration for those who truly wish that those professing one
religion or the other would just shut up, do a ghar vapsi and shout their
prayers in the confines of a sound-proofed home. i honestly don't find loud,
in-your-face hinduism any less offensive than loud, in-your-face any other
religion.
Aparna Krishnan
Nityanand, my point is that most Indians are
more deeply religious that you are I. Our education makes us more 'rational'
and thereby 'less religious' - that is the structure of modern education
itself. That is another story - but we need to realise that our beleifs and
reactions are not that os an ordinary indian (we are the over-educated). In a
country that is anchored in a simple religiousness, to have another religion
come and tell them that they are 'damned', 'lost', and that their souls need to
be saved from their pagan gods is offensive. And not quite acceptable. i would
tell the former to stop harvesting sould on this land, and not advise the
latter to take it with humour.
Aparna Krishnan
The other point of loud blareings is taken, and
that we will sort out as a commyunity with the temples and gurudwaras and
mosques ! We are a noisy community, and so it will take some negitiations !!
Nityanand Jayaraman Which religion belongs to this land? Which
doesn't? Which god decreed this? Who is the other? Does the simple
religiousness recognise the other? I'm with you in feeling that that christian
procession was offensive. But to say that it is offensive merely because it
distributed pamphlets, and that it was the "other" that was preaching
to a simpler, superior, gentler religion that also conducts offensive parades
and practices ghar vapsi sounds incoherent.
Aparna Krishnan
Nityanand, point taken - all religions belong to
this land. And thereby for any religion to inform any other that they are lost
because of their pagan gods is unacceptable. totally.
Aparna Krishnan and the simple religiousness on this land
traditionally and even today accepts and revers the other. but i am beginning
to feel that years of being told that their gods are pagan, finally breaks the
nerve of some of these gentle souls, and then the hardliners are born. i think
these are dynamics at work that i refused to see, persoanlly i was caught up in
a beatific sense of 'accept all', 'forgive those who try to convert, they are
misguided'. that was a silly logic, as it does not work at a society's level.
Anand Rajadhyaksha
Thanks for the first hand feelings
Aparna Krishnan
To clarify, I beleive that all religions belong
on this land which has always accepted and integrated into itself every
tradition. My only serious point is that a religion that considers other
'pagan', and the followers of that 'deluded and lost', will someday face a
severe reaction. It is best to see and address that early on. The other point I
wish to make is unlike most english educated people, the ordinary indian is
deeply religious, And so it is more important that out of respect for him, his
gods not be dismissed as pagan. He may not mind given his deep ability to
tolerate - but i mind for him. This i say from my years in the village.
Anand Rajadhyaksha
This land has always been open to all. Most
of the breeds and creeds that came here as invaders initially have been
assimilated into being Indians. Unfortunately, these two Abrahamic faiths ie,
Christianity and Islam have always striven to maintain an alien identity which
is a cause for worry. They have also been infused with a sense of religious
superiority which is worrisome.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Nityanand Jayaraman Where was this
outspoken outrage that you show towards Ghar Wapsi when Christian groups
blatantly converted Tribals with sops and NE people with guns? After 800 years
of slavery, being spat on from all directions and derided, some Hindus took
matters in their own hands and reciprocated in kind with Ghar Wapsi so all hell
breaks loose? This Teesta Seetalvad illogic where activists always have to
blame the majority and downplay the faults of the minority as if to protect an
endangered Penguin species has done us in. The majority community is sick and
tired of the psedo-secularism imposed on them. Sanathana Dharma is the history
and character of this land whether you like it or not. There was no communal
riots until certain foreign, yes, foreign religions started asserting
themselves and intruding into our space using force and foul deceit. Ghar
Wapsi, which is not forced conversion btw, may not be in line with Hindu ethos
of non-proselytisation, but it is nontheless a reality check. It has clearly
exposed the glaring double standards in our society especially among
intellectuals, liberals and media on the issue of conversions.
Aparna Krishnan
Lets not hide behind 'feel good'
words. We know what they beleive, and why they try to convert. We know their
stand on idolatry. And the ordinary illierate Indian also understands that very
well.
Indu Kumar
Nityanand Jayaraman. I have a question. Would you
have responded if this post had been about condemning some practice or the
other of the Hindus? I wonder. However, one is quick to point out mistakes if
statements are made against religions other than Hinduism. It is not just you.
Even I was like that. I am trying to change, though. Most of the people born
into the Hindu religion have this quality to ignore when Hinduism is
criticized, but respond otherwise. As far as this incident is concerned, I
would have politely refused with thanks saying that I would first learn my
religion before I learn about another. And I agree that they have a right to
offer and I have mine to refuse. No offense meant, my childhood
classmate/friend Nityanand Jayaraman.
Indu Kumar
I truly experience that all religions are different
paths to the same goal. My Central school upbringing has also brainwashed me
so, and certain spiritual practices gave me the experience that religion is
man-made. However, I am deeply attached to the religion that I am born into.
And one straw more from other non-Hindu religions might drive me to start
giving a serious hearing to what RSS and others have to say. I really hope that
people like me are not driven to that extreme.
Anand Rajadhyaksha
Pagan is used as a pejorative; that is what
is objectionable. What is wrong in being a pagan when we are their equals?
Well, that is not accepted, pagan is a put downer. The tone of voice clearly
insinuates that. I openly confront anyone who uses the word pagan, asking him
to explain himself. Finally, when s.he has expended himself, I just tell him/
her that what s/he has explained is his / her belief, and the word beLIEf
itself is founded on a LIE. So his / her lie does not make it any more real than
mine; so please leave me to my faith. Normally they leave fuming because I
never abuse, do not argue midway, let them spend themselves and finally put
them down. Their time is effectively wasted, and that too in front of others.
Always works.
Anand Rajadhyaksha
Also when the roving pastors work their
'miracles' with "incurably sick women", I always feel that if half a
dozen rats and a cobra is let loose on the stage all of a sudden, the sick
woman will automatically get cured at their sight.
Aparna Krishnan
They may not even use the word pagan so openly,
but we know that that is structured into the beleif, and that is why we are en
mass invited to their Healings. And a community will at some point kick back.
And that I fear is happenning.
Anand Rajadhyaksha
Actually we need vigorous legislation to
inquire into the medical history of the "cured" cases and prosecute
them as well as those pastors.... then things will be straightened out.
Aparna Krishnan
Let them enjoy their healings. Let the others be
left along with their million gods. I like having my millions gods to love and
abuse as my fancy dictates.
Anand Rajadhyaksha
The healings are not for the Christians, they
are for Hindus.
Ra Jesh
Just want to respond to an oft repeated myth that Naveen
Manikandan Periasamy has repeated on this thread. Religion-inspired persecution
has been a part of all religions, including Hinduism and before the advent of
any 'foreign' powers. Case in point:
https://www.facebook.com/mani.seshan.7/posts/10200265688720883?pnref=story
மதமாற்றத் தடைச்சட்டத்திற்கும் இந்தப் படத்துக்கும்
எந்த ஒரு தொடர்பும் இல்லை.மனிதனை கரும்பு பிழியும் இயந்திரம் போன்ற ஒன்றினால் பிழிந்து எடுக்கும் கொடுமை. அந்தக் ...
Nityanand Jayaraman
Dear Indu Kumar You have asked me a
question, and I will answer that sincerely? I would not defend crticism of the
Hindu religion or christianity or islam or whatever. They do not need my
defense. They have their respective practitioners who seem to be doing a pretty
good job of defending their own and denigrating others. I request you to read
my comment above one more time. It does not defend christianity. it merely
questions the supple positioning of one religion as being inherently superior
because it did not distribute pamphlets. What that pamphlet said I have no idea
and don't really care. My comment makes clear my discomfort with any religion
that seeks to shove its ideals down my throat. The fact that you took my
comment as an attack only on one religion to defend another exposes the need
for questioning yourself, not me. I believe my birth in a hindu family was not
my doing. My parents are religious and that is their right, and I bear them no
grudge. I find religion offensive, and I hope others will bear me no grudge.
Religion is political, and more about (wo)man than about god. Mr. Naveen
Manikandan Periasamy sounds like Arnab Goswami when he humbly takes upon
himself the onerous task of speaking for India's majority community. So if it
has now been declared by Arnab that Sanathana Dharma is the history and
character of this land whether I like it or not, I'll just state for the record
that I don't like it, and pose a question as to what dharma existed before
human kind stepped on this holy land.
Aparna Krishnan
Nityanand, those on FB here do not count. We are
irrelvent - the ones who thro' their very over education are alienated from the
people. My only point is that the ordinary inhabitants of this vast land are
religious, and are rooted in their religiosity. It behooves ill of any religion
to inform another - in overt or implied ways - that their idols and gods are
false. The pamphlet incidentally did not use the word pagan at all - it was
politically correct. but we the literate, and the others who are illiterate
well understand all that is left unsaid. That theirs is the only true God, and
that we worship stones and anthills and trees. When i with my borderline
religiosity get irritated at the implication of the welcome to this Healing
session, I can imagine others more truly religious reacting more extremely. It
is very provoking to be told (in unsaid words even) that one's gods are false !
And very impolite and uncultured behaviour also.
Aparna Krishnan
I am already starting to feel more affectionate
towards my million gods whom i had forgotten !
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Nityanand Jayaraman Ok Nidhi Razdan.
No two hoots are given for your misinformed, self-loathing opinion on Dharma.
No one is shoving any ideals down your throat. It is merely a statement of fact
that a certain widely acknowledged belief system existed in the country and
recorded since oral and written traditions started. The majority community has
the right to assert themselves when their way of life is threatened just for
being what they are and believing in what they want want to. This has nothing
to do with projecting superiority or simplicity or whatever you have
interpreted out the statements made above.
Nityanand Jayaraman
I only speak for myself. I do not believe
that I do not count, and also do not think I'm alienated from people despite my
education. As for speaking ill of other religions, believers of all faiths are
guilty of practising this uncouth behaviour.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, all religions do act superior, and internal
correction is needed. But we need to face that Christianity has the added
structural burden of being told to 'save the heathens'. That I am beginning to
feel should not be permitted. This is a new thought, and I need to think
further.
Indu Kumar
Nityanand Jayaraman. I will take your argument that
subtly the Hindu religion follower was placing this religion above others. My
question is if a non-Hindu had done the same, would you still have responded
this way. ... ?????
Nityanand Jayaraman
absolutely.
Indu Kumar
Then, I am happy. Thank you 😊.
Aparna Krishnan
And regarding our alienation due to our
education, that was McCaulay's aim - and what has succeeded most magnificently
iMHO. We could be deeply sympathetic tp the poor, I may live with them, and eat
the same kind of food, and have deep friendships - but. They are deeply religious,
though in a very bare way. And my schooling robbed me of that. Because modern
schooling is based of 'science as primary', and what does not fall within the
parameters of science is regelated to secondary levels. And so religion also
fell by the way. And my understanding, wich grew only slowly over many many
years, is that that dharmam which they reefer to in every second sentence is
the anchor point of their worldview. And all their culture, entertainment and
holidays are also subtly wound around religion. That is a very deep alienating
point.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
I would like to ask. Has any Hindu
religious leader gone to a foreign country and talked sh#t about Christianity
like this pastor does on American television.? Indians need saving from a
Demonic religion with demons running everywhere and 330 millions gods he says.
This is not a rarity. http://www.cbn.com/tv/2242958532001
Has any Hindu leader gone to Vatican or Mecca and brayed that
the shrine is the abode of the Devil, like this Christian pastor has done in
Tirumala?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YCY8voabkg
Clearly these is a big difference between the intolerance of
Abrahamic religions and that attributed to Hindus. Playing the balancing game
is only hiding the truth that stares on the face.
Uma KS Aparna,
I echo Jayashree's question. There is no call to
feel offended by the pamphlets if they do not mock or belittle your religion.
Christianity and Islam are religions where the faithful are called upon to
proselytize. It is their religious duty. Why should we object to that? If we
are offended that followers of our religion are lured away into theirs, then we
should look inwards and figure out why this is happening. You and I are not
going to fall for their arguments. If there are other Hindus who fall for them
and convert, then either there is something about being a Hindu that does not
appeal to them, or they are plain greedy. Either way, it is their wish (the
ones who convert). And in a democracy, people are free to change their religion
as they wish.
Aparna Krishnan
My religion is the foundation stone of the
people of my village (and thereby of all villages). Their very identity. I do
not wish anyone coming and telling them overtly or in implied tones that their
Gods are false. I think it is not required to tolerate this 'because the
Christian religion tells the Christians to'. Over long years it could undermine
the self identity of my village people. And at the least it demeans them - even
if they are all forgiving. I am least interested in myself, or in the audeience
here. I am only speaking for what ordinary people are facing as their deepest
beleifs are being attacked in the name of 'freedom' by those professing other
religions. I actually see the Muslims in the area holding their peace and
following their beleifs. It is Christianity that seems to be out to harvest
souls. This is simply an observation - I have not tried to study it actually.
Uma KS
You are right when you say that it is the Christians who
are openly out to harvest souls, as compared to Muslims. But that is what their
religion tells them to do, and even if we tell them to desist, they will not,
for they believe they are doing their religious duty. I am not defending them
here, I am just saying that we should take this in our stride without getting
too worked up about it. I'm sure your village people will not listen to anyone
telling them that their Gods are false, if they are as deeply religious as you
say. So what if someone tries to tell them their Gods are false? They can just
toss their heads and walk away from the proselytisers, can't they? This is what
tolerance is about - to take the bad with the good, or religion, or anything in
life.
Indu Kumar
Uma, even until recently, whenever I heard others
attacking my religion, I kept quiet because I was too scared to speak. Not
because I knew or realized my religion too well. I agree that Christians
believe that they must convert, but let them realize that others are as
passionate too. And I must speak out so that others who are scared and confused
get support.
Uma KS
Absolutely! One must speak out against things that one
opposes, and do so without any fear! But let us only speak out. Let us not say
'we will not tolerate this...or that'. Because the lack of tolerance implies
that we will take other measures - and that can only escalate conflict.
Indu Kumar Agree.
Adharshila Learning Centre
Cool down. This one really needs you
to ask eshwaramma her opinion. I too would like to know her reaction to your
opinion!
Sonali Basu
it is interesting that when the proposal was given
by the government to bring in an anti-conversrion law, there was a complete
refusal by all concerned. wonder why? it seems some would be more equal than
others
Aparna Krishnan
absolutely sonali. why accept conversion, and
make such a racket about ghar wapasi. i am beginning to feel that i never
really saw the details of the 'secularism' i was all for down the years.
Aparna Krishnan
Adharshila Learning Centre, am very cool
thank you ! :). and i told you what they did. this friend came home, and in the
evening told them to beat their gods with slippers, in the pandal. as gods are
cheats. and they simply ignored him. some 15 years later, annasamy anna was
telling me that later he asked him, if there is no god, tell me how you who
were born with nothing on, and could not even sit - are like this now, clothed,
and even driving aound. seems to have had some discussions later.
Aparna Krishnan
the people may allow threir gods to be abused by
this atheist friend of ours - but i would even without them asking, defend
their right to not have theig gods abused. or to have these missionaries come
and tell them they are worshipping false gods.
Aparna Krishnan
let us definitely make sure the minorities feel
safe, and go the extra mile. that is our culture. but there is no reason for
allowing them to convert, and hooting at ghar wapasi. and the funny thing is
that, it suddenly came home. even i was braying at ghar wapasi, as the media
portrayed it, as if it was a big joke. we are all quite deeply 'pseudo secular'
i am realising.
Sonali Basu
Aparna Krishnan i was in coorg in december and we
were held up for 2 hours on the road for a religious procession of a certain
community. i wondered then is this the only way secularism can be demonstrated?
if this had been a majority procession there would have been so much
antagonistic noise about it. religion is between me and my god. every religion
is good and right. but are some more equal than others?
Aparna Krishnan
i agree. and its taken me a very long time to
face this. after the gujarat riots i went into such a deep sense of common
guilt - and i think the majority community goes thro' such reactions. but we
cannot lose sight to realities and details. and fairness is needed - or the
pseudo secularism will lead to such a severe backlash of reactionism - and i
suspect that has started already.
Mohammad Chappalwala
This is a great post followed by some very
good comments.
Aparna Krishnan
Conversion and ghar wapasi are equal. I wonder
why the mejority community winked and one and hooted at the other.
Aparna Krishnan
Then for a community to inform another than
their most revered gods are false is to me an unacceptable right they claim.
they may in the confines of their worship spaces together inform each other of
their superiority as against the hethens. If they claim the right to do this
outside, and they get pelted with slippers, they can face it.
Jus Sheeja
violence in thought word and action because some
illiterate threw in a pamphlet on ones face. bravo. This shows the true face of
religion
Aparna Krishnan
No - you will not understand the mind of the
truly religious. To them their God is as dear as their family. I speak for my
village.
Aparna Krishnan
and my own right to my 3000000 gods, whether i
own them up or not, to not be called false. and FYI it is not an odd illiterate
- it is the thought out position of a religion, that others are false
religions. and that is what i question.
Jus Sheeja
no u do not speak for ur village Aparna Krishnan
remember the anecdote about the villagesr turning a deaf ear to distasteful
comments on their gods.
Aparna Krishnan
yes, but i would not demand that from them were
that repeated again and again. i would demand that the offender stop. and not
all villages maybe as kind.
Sonali Basu everybody's god is god. everybody's god is his or
her own. it is not about majority or minority. it is about equality.
Pradip Ganguly
Yes,Aparna , I principaly agree with ur
statement. Christians have been resorting to conversion from ages thru their
modes of services. That is why u will find very many adivasis, backward castes
etc are Christians. But if these people want to get back to their mother
religion & Hindus happened to be involved then there is a big furore by
most of these political parties as their only agenda is vote & gaddi &
appeasement - country comes last. I think religion is absolutely an
individual's prerogative & nobody should impose/interfere into that. The law
should be uniform for all Indians.
Nityanand Jayaraman
and those who believe in religion get
shriller and shriller to the point that they start resembling each other
regardless of the colour or flavour of their gods. Q.E.D. Religion = Problem.
Or tell me a different story. Love me. Show me.
Aparna Krishnan Nityanand, let me come back to basics. India -
as represented by the poorest, illiterate, and non Anglicised (you and I out !)
- is deeply religious. They quote devudu and dharmam in every third sentence.
It is a living faith. They are also vastly accomodating. (This is my village
that I speak for. there could be village quicker to take offence also, I do not
know,)
The Muslims and Hindus live in complete amity. Now an atheist
comes there (a friend of ours), and says that the Gods should be beaten with
slippers. He can say that in his spaces - and does not need to come to this
village and tell these people. Anyway that was overlooked totally.
Yesterday what struck me was how the Christians have been
totally denying the Gods of these people as 'false gods', overtly and implied.
And I see no reason why any other religion should malign our gods - it is not
one stray pamphlet, but the structure of that process itself.
Aparna Krishnan
A backlash will happen, and we are witnessing
it. And even in myself, i see a questioning of the secularism that i see. I do
not want to part of something that permits one section to convert, and mocks at
the other section when it also converts.
Nityanand Jayaraman
Exactly my point. If you believe without
spiritual rooting, you are likely to be driven by religion into lashing and
backlashing.
Aparna Krishnan
And even there - please - do not expect them to
hold peace forever if another religion keeps calling their Gods false gods -
openly and not so openly.
Nityanand Jayaraman
Dear Aparna: I don't think you should speak
for me. We may have similar upbringing but we are not the same. I do not know
your gangamma, but I do not wish her to be reviled. i do not know about the
religousness you speak of, but if people find solace in that religiousness, I
wish them well. I find the religiousness in this thread particularly poisonous
and vengeful. I find that this religiousness may probably be very distant from
the religiosity that you constantly invoke as the religiosity of Gangamma.
Aparna Krishnan
And I put you and me in the same bracket only so
far as our English education goes, And that creates a world view that vastly
alienates from the thinking of the ordinary people. I cannot even explain maybe
- because it took me years of living as a neighbour and friend to sense the
differences.
Nityanand Jayaraman
Illiteracy has nothing to do with reacting
when one's belief is questioned. So that label is not required. The violent
response is engineered and executed not by the gangammas and vinayakas but by
insecure believers who are quick to be offended, and quicker to react and fail
to realise that they are being led by the nose by one vested political
interest. or the other. Humanity is forgotten. Life is forgotten.
Aparna Krishnan And our media needs to stop making ghar wapasi
look like a parody, while accepting conversions quietly. And in case the Hindus
had gone on a full scale conversion to match the Christians, i can imagine the
highly offended secular brigade It is what Sonali Basu says - that the terms
have to be same. Or we will simply be asking for the majority backlash. Which
we have got actually.
Only people do not seem to understand the sociological basis,
while they keep wishing our people would be gentle and tolerent and forgiving
and understanding. For a few times yes ...and then ...
Nityanand Jayaraman Sure it is. But that may not be their
reading, and while it may make you an RSS fan and tempt you with a ghar vapsi,
I don't necessarily think that those who are spiritually rooted to what you
call religiosity will find it necessary to avenge insults to what they have
clearly understood as the ultimate oneness.
Nityanand Jayaraman
I don't even know if people who believe in
the great oneness actually see things as my community and the other community.
Nityanand Jayaraman
That is petty. That is religion.
Mohammad Chappalwala
For some The constitution becomes the holy
book
Veena Simon
Really Aparna? You wud like to join the ghar wapsi
campaign, just because a bunch of ppl distributed some pamphlets?..... You were
so quick to generalise. "One religion trying to falsify another." How
many non-Christian students pass out of Christian educational institutions
every year? How many have been asked to convert or told their religion is
false....
Next time Aparna take the pamphlet and junk it just like we did
when a Hindu right-wing orgn distributed pamphlets saying that India belongs to
the Hindus some years back in my hometown....
Veena Simon
Why this paranoia about conversion even among
educated, sensible ppl like you? In two thousand years of Christianity coming
to India, they form only around 2.3 % of the population and dwindling in
numbers. Looks like somebody has been doing a bad job!!! ;)...
Aparna Krishnan
Very few see the "Great Oneness" Nityanand, and
forgive people abuseing what they revere - more than a few times. The rest of
us say prayers to our gods, light the lamp, medidate on the light, try to
understand dharma, and try to practice it with small steps. And we also feel
outraged when our Gods are termed false. It is just being human I think, and
not petty.
Pankaj Arora
Liked the post and the comments thereof!! Sharing
it! Thanks!
Sampatt Shetty
Veena Simons, McCaulised education has ripped the
Indian culture, schools convert children's attitude and make them question
parents ability to spend, which is not in Indian culture, conversion is
engineered in multiple ways, some of them being instilling elders and parents
advice as superstitious, creating a division in the child's mind on acceptance
of Hindu festivals as distortions, all these are propagated in a very innocent
garb of providing education, children and parents today are confused on career
choices even after 15 plus years of education, they end up just becoming robots
fit to just pay EMI's, Taxes, and Entertainment. These growing citizens are
incapable of even governing their own societies, so where is all this
heading!!! Just because of an education that seemed to innoculatively change their
understanding to such an extent that Common Sense is no longer a prerequisite
for living, and more.......
Raghu Ananthanarayanan
Looks like mada veri is becoming an
epidemic! Our scriptures say 'gruha thyaagam' is essential for real inward
progress. Proselytizing religions believe that creating a fortress and tricking
people to join the fortress will lead one to heaven. The problem is that belief
reinforced by group think is more easy to show than an inward path to truth.
Attacking another's idea is more effective then owning up to the genocides and
rapaciousness of ones own people. May be we should count the number of
Christian Atom bombs. The first one we exploded was called a Hindu bomb!! Give
me a break.
Aparna Krishnan
Veena, is one religion is permitted to convert
(and it is happenning please - look in SC colonies and in tribal belts !) and
not another ? Is Ghar wapasi very different from conversion. I was also braying
when I saw media jpkes on it - suddenly i started wondering.
Aparna Krishnan
And please - it is not 'an odd pamphlet'. Is not
Chrishtianity, as per its own text., supposed to 'save souls'. And does not
that religion beleive that it is the only true religion. It is welcome to feel
superior or 'Chosen' - within its own churches. Not outside in public spaces.
One pamphlet i would also ignore. When it is done thro' church after church in
the hinterlands, and when it is the SOP of the religion, I would also need to
question in public their right to call my Gods 'false'.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Veena Simon That is the official
figure. The unofficial figure is yet unknown. It includes Dalits lured by
Chrisitian evangelists and converted and yet retain their Hindu names and caste
identities for reservations. I was oblivious to all this and pretended that
this is fear mongering, until I learned that my house maid was converted by a
local pastor. She feels revulsion when Hindu devotional songs are played in the
house as if it is the word of the Devil. Such is the level of Brainwashing
involved. An old friend of mine was also converted this way. Why was the
government reluctant to release the 2011 census demographics for so long when
the Congress was in power..?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OdrfTJ23E4
A radical form of Christianity is being propagated through
deceit and vast sums of money is pouring in from abroad for this purpose. The
Christianity that has been in India since the time of the apostle Thomas is not
of this kind and melded well with the society. This is not simple 'spreading the
good message' or proselytisation, but mass social engineering going on
throughout the third world. For those who doubt this, I would recommend a read
of 'Breaking India' by Rajiv Malhotra who has done extensive research on this
subject. Why is it that anyone who raises these issues is being branded as a
hate monger and religious bigot instead of being given a rational rebuttal..?
Aparna Krishnan
Exactly. Ghar Wapasi is being mocked at.
Conversions, where the coverted are taught to see shlokas as the Devil's words,
is accepted. I am understanding what pseudu- secularism is.
Naveen Kumar V
The more strongly we are attached to these
identities, the more clouded the vision becomes/is.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/naveen-kumar-v/religion/10150785686637722
Religion
Religion has become superstition and image-worship, belief and
ritual. It has lost the beauty of truth; incense has taken the place of
reality. Instead of direct perception there is in its place the image carved by
the hand or the mind. The only concern of religion is the total transformation
of man. And all the circus that goes on around it is nonsense. That's why the
truth is not to be found in any temple, church or mosque, however beautiful
they are. Beauty of truth and beauty of stone are two different things. One
opens the door to the immeasurable and the other to the bondage of thought.
The religious mind is something entirely different from the mind
that believes in religion. You cannot be religious and yet be a Hindu, a
Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist. A religious mind does not seek at all, it
cannot experiment with truth. Truth is not something dictated by your pleasure
or pain, or by your conditioning as a Hindu or whatever religion you belong to.
The religious mind is a state of mind in which there is no fear and therefore
no belief whatsoever but only what is -what actually is.
- Krishnamurti
Aparna Krishnan
Naveen Kumar V, fifteen years ago i would have
seconded you totally.But in a village i learnt that the Indian identity, ethos,
philosophy and morals are placed in a very simple but deep religiousness. And
it a religiousness that anchors their sense of dharma (as they term it), and
helps them follow a generosity that I (in my comparatively irreligios state)
cannot. Anyway my position is that every civilisation has an inherited
structural framework, on which we need to build, and whose perversions we need
to correct. To discard it, would be to discard the selfhood itself. - And
coming back to the thread, as their gods matter deeply to them, I would not
want to give other religions the privilege and freedom of publicly calling them
false. For the sake of 'secularism' or anything else.
Sampatt Shetty
Religion is Dharma, Dharma is the true identity
beyond religion, the village folks are aware of Dharma without any masking of
any religious pressure, Dharma protects the follower, irrespective of any faith
or creed.
Aparna Krishnan
In India, in villages, dharma, and the
mahabharatha stories, and the rituals and the sandhya deepam ire inextricably
linked. i see no call to delink them. Nor any way either - short of shakeing
their identity.
Aparna Krishnan
Nityanand Jayaraman and others, I think the
differing perspectives also come from the urban/rural world we have been
exposed to. A chat with Mohammad had me thinking. When i was urban, I also used
to dismiss religion, as I saw our class of rich people go to temples, do
archnais, and not greatly question their own lifestyles. Then in the village I
saw ordinary poor practice religion, and also a great generosity and integrity
that they called dharmam. Dharmam and devudu go together in their paradigm. And
then I think is when I started rethinking almost unconcsiously about what
religion means in the soil of this land. This is not to debate at all, or to
convince anyone - I am simply placing my own path as it evolved. And though i
myself did not turn deeply religious, my respect for religion and the truly
religious went up.
Nityanand Jayaraman
Dear Aparna Krishnan Answers to two issues
raised by you. First, you say that ghar wapsi is no different from the
conversions that you criticise. Exactly my point. Ordinary people practising
ordinary religions are likely to be disturbed to a point of outrage by other
other ordinary people practising their ordinary religions. So what's good about
one and bad about the other? Which is Indian? What about those of us who don't
like either, and would rather have neither? Will we have our Indianness
questioned by the real "Indians"? Do real Indians bleed differently
from the aliens? Is my mother-in-law -- a practising catholic -- not Indian?
What about my child -- daughter of a non-practising catholic and a seasonal
agnostic? Does she have to grow up in a village to qualify for Indianness and
know the true meaning of life? I find a lot to disagree with in your writings.
While your experiences are clearly meaningful to you, I'm not comfortable with
your deft dismissal of the experiences of others as being misinformed because
it is not informed from the same position (village, simple Indians, rooted to
the notion of dharma of your and yours) as yours. Don't you find yourself
mirroring the xenophobic monotheist notions propagated by the people you
criticise?
Aparna Krishnan
Nityanand, I have lived in both worlds, urban
and rural. And I know that rural India has a very different value structure,
and perspective itself, and to even understand that took me years of living
there. I'm simply shareing that observation or perspective - it is for the
other to take or dismiss. Hardly matters.
Aparna Krishnan You are not getting the point. In one
phrase - when a community is deeply religious, and its gods and dharmam forms
the rock ot its existance, i protest at another community calling its gods
false.
Naveen Kumar V
Aparna, if your villagers indeed embody a simple
and deep religiosity like you claim, then all these attempts to convert them or
deny 'their' gods as false, will seem like childish prattle to them. Their
cultural and metaphysical moorings would be far too robust to be bothered by
this balderdash to win them over to one side. They wouldn't need self-appointed
sentinels to defend them or flag waving ideologues to organize ghar wapsis.
Their Dharmam wouldn't be just a belief system, but arise from a living
communion with the Devudu in ALL.
Coming from a similar socio-cultural context, and having partly
lived in village since childhood not too far from yours, i have strong doubts
if you are confusing between the simple and simplistic. While both might seem
generous, the innocence of the child and the innocence of the mystic are not
the same. With all due respect, mixing one up with the other would lead to
disastrous consequences for oneself and others.
Aparna Krishnan
I stand by the rights of any religious community
to not have their gods termed false gods by another religious community. In a
consistant and structured manner. (We can discuss my village seperately - it is
irrelevent. The issue is broader rights here.)
Aparna Krishnan
And I stand by the rights of all communities to
convert were conversion allowed - without just one party being put on trial by
media and public.
Aparna Krishnan I am not their sentinal. They are my friends.
And I do not like seeing their gods questioned.
Naveen Kumar V
<<In one phrase - when a community is
deeply religious, and its gods and dharmam forms the rock ot its existance, i
protest at another community calling its gods false. period.>>
Curious to know how the community itself is responding? Are they
also protesting? Do they feel attacked by the 'other', feel under siege by this
denigration of their culture? Or do they not care or give two hoots. How is the
community itself responding?
Aparna Krishnan
well, my area only once an atheist came and
spoke some nonsense. they didnt care. if it repeats 10 times, i dont know. and
let us not forget the horrors of the babri masjid. and let us not
simplistically assume that everything was politically motivated - hindus come
in different forms - some benign, and some more militant. Best to not push a
community to be wall, advising it the while to hold its peace, That imo is
happenning to the hindus under the twin attacks of westernisation and this.
Westernisation more i would say, personally.
Nityanand Jayaraman
The only temper that I see rising is not
Gangamma's but yours. And I think we are talking about your sensibilities and
not that of your friends from the village whose religiosity and life does not
allow them the time or the luxury to engage in this facebook debate.
Aparna Krishnan
There are more important things in the here and
now. this is a more general thing that i desired - that their sentiments be
respected. but they will fight their battles, and do not need my time here on
FB on this. you are completely right.
Nityanand Jayaraman
It will be respected by me. You have no
control over the others that will not respect it, and showing disrespect in the
general direction of those who disrepect your friends seems like an
intellectually hollow exercise. So, I'd like to invite you to ghar vapas to our
fold. RSS does not have anything redeeming. They are disrespectful,
patriarchal, violent and hateful. If we find something appealing in their call,
it is important to re-examine our calling rather than critiquing the calling of
others.
Aparna Krishnan
who was going to RSS ? someone else made that
comment, and you are attributing it to me. scroll up !
Nityanand Jayaraman
Sorry. Will scroll up. Wow. Living in
paranoid times.
Aparna Krishnan
:)
Aparna Krishnan regarding ghar wapsi i only said that if conversions
are ok for one, they are ok for all.
Aparna Krishnan
and i only belong in my own fold ! i have
differences with the left and the right ! the left perspective starting with
'religion is the opium of the masses' does not suit my village understanding.
the right i have many differences with. and the traditional left and right are
two sides of the same industrial model - unviable. I need a model that respects
the village religiosity and dharmam and deep wisdom, and is a village based
swarajya model.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Nityanand Jayaraman RSS is not to be
confused with Hindu Mahasabha or VHS. RSS has muslims and christian cadres.
They serve selflessly without discrimination during times of natural disasters
as was seen during the recent kashmir floods. They played a key role in the
freedom struggle and were widely acknowledged by the likes of Gandhi, Ambedkar
and Nehru for their disciple and services. They are against caste and
untouchability. If you feel that RSS is a hate group, please substantiate your
claim with facts.
Aparna Krishnan
Naveen, what is Godse's relationship with RSS ?
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Godse quit RSS before the
assasination. Hindu Mahasabha claims him. The hate speeches and activities of
any given Hindu radical is being falsely attributed to RSS. Read about the
history of RSS since the days of the freedom movement. They have contributed a
lot to the country. The left-libs have the habit of branding every nationalist
as RSS agent.
Aparna Krishnan I have met RSS workers who have scant respect
for Gandhiji. Is that a general norm ?
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy There are cadres like that.
Disrespect for Gandhi cuts across the political spectrum for various reasons
and not unique to the right. There is an extremist faction within RSS although
they dont call the shots within. It will sound like a conspiracy theory. They
are called Chitpavan Brahmins who are not a indigenous race. Godse was among
them.
Aparna Krishnan
Very directly - what is RSS stand on Gandhi ?
There are many across the spectrumwho dismiss him, I know.
Nityanand Jayaraman Dear Naveen Manikandan Periasamy Faith and
belief cannot be changed by mere facts. So I'm uncertain whether the below
facts will help you reassess your understanding of RSS. But here it is anyway.
RSS as an organisation was inspired by European fascism, and that is no secret.
A Hindu nationalist organisation in a country where people of multiple faiths
reside cannot but be without an ideology of discrimination against the
"others." Their involvement in and support for the Gujarat riots has
also been documented, including by a team led by former Chief Justice Krishna
Iyer. http://www.pucl.org/.../2003/gujarat-tribunal-report.htm RSS' role in
pulling down Babri Masjid is also well documented in the Liberhan Commission
report, and the organisation was banned in 1993.
http://archive.indianexpress.com/.../how-the-bjp.../545911/ If you are
interested in verifying whether RSS practises hate and violence, the Wiki page
with its references would be a good starting place. While some of the
references are not accurate, I'm sure you would be able to discern the more
reliable ones.
Crime Against Humanity - report of the Concerned Citizens
Tribunal
PUCL.ORG
Sasi Kp
In front of RSS headquarters in Nagpur, they had built a
statue for Godse. It is the same Sangh Parivar which has been trying to build a
temple for Godse and a bridge in the name of Godse. Aparna Krishnan, come to
your senses. How active are you with the Sanghis, Aparna Krishnan?
Aparna Krishnan
Dont worry about me Sasi Kp. I am well equipped
to take care of myself. My concern is my village, and all villages. I am
actually neither interested in the left philosophy which sees them in their
simple religiousness as 'opiated'. Nor in the right which cannot understand
their vast and all encompassing religiousness. And as far as economic models
go, the left and the right are two sides of the same industrial and modern
model - which is not mine. But, I will deal with both, insofar as my own dream
of a deep respect for the village ethos and simple religiosity goes, and the
model of gram swarajya goes. My model stays Gandhiji's.
Sasi Kp
Thanks. Have a good beef curry meal and relax.
Aparna Krishnan
No I dont. I am non-negotiably vegetarian, by
birth and by beleif. I have no airs about it, because I know that my modern
consumerism destroys more animals than an occasional meat dish would. But I
follow my practices. And I stand by by village people's need and wish to have
meat. I also stand by their sacrifing fowl to Gangamma. Because I beleive that
is a community is non vegetarian, it will offer its food to its gods also.
Sasi Kp
Good for you. Then support my fundamental right to eat
beef curry as a part of right to food of hundreds of cultures in this
subcontinent.
Aparna Krishnan
Please do - as if i count in anyway. i am
totally inconsequential.. anyway regarding cow protecting, something far more
fundamental was said by a voice in the past, of far deeper commitment,
integrity and standing than you or i. I wish those concerned about cows would
read that. http://paalaguttapalle.blogspot.in/2014/06/kumarappa-1.html
Sasi Kp
By the way, when you mentioned about pamphlets, I am
just curious about whether your have seen pamphlets and posters by the Sangh
Parivar saying that Muslims and Christians are not Indians?
Aparna Krishnan
ok. that is also wrong. two wrongs dont make a
right. neither are they permitted to say that. nor the christians permitted to
call my gods false.
Sasi Kp
Why are you pre occupied with the left? I am neither
left or right. I am just ahead.
Aparna Krishnan
i am concerned with gram swaraj. i am not
interested in you, or in anyone else. the left and the right have the same
economic model. in both, whoever works towards swadeshi or anarchisim, i will
try to add work with. that is all.
Sasi Kp
The article which you sent says that beef is a health
hazard. Contrary to your assumptions, it has various medicinal qualities. Good
beef curry is also very tasty. Just try it. You won't regret it.
Aparna Krishnan
I follow my practices. Neither glorifying nor
apologising for them. I apologise for the consumerism. modernity and
industrilisation i am part of today, which has rent apart the earth, the
thereby the lives of the poorest first.
Aparna Krishnan
the article is primarily about the economic
model which alone can help cattle and people. other points if any are
incidental maybe.
Sasi Kp
And as far as Geeta, Ramayana and Mahabharata are
concerned, they are all battle stories, justifying war and revenge. I would
prefer superman, batman and phantom stories because they are supposed to work
for justice for the downtrodden.
Aparna Krishnan
please read what you enjoy. my village people
and i have benefited vastly from the epics and scriptures.
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan The way to talk about ancient Indian
history ( yez history not mythology ) to modern Western Intellectual Indians
is, design patterns, archetype, framework etc. Then they may see sense.
Never say religion dharma etc.
Aparna Krishnan
I say dharma. i use the vocabulary of my
village. I beleive in their vocabulary. I beleive in them.
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan
Yes sometimes we have to translate English
to English for the benefit of those who only know English
Aparna Krishnan
I will not, Because the meaning gets lost. Those
who wish will have to understand india - and by living and listening to the
villages (not by going and telling them what to do.)
Sasi Kp
There are over five lakh villages in this country. How
many villages have you spent your time. How many villages have you studied?
Aparna Krishnan
Sasi Kp, I cannot debate on this. The section on
Dharma may give some idea of a village's thoughts in case you are genuinely
interested. In case it is a debate I would not even wish to try to hold my own.
Paalaguttapalle (Dalitwada) - A Village: Dharmam and Rains
PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan
For those who understand a little is
enough, for those who refuse to understand the universe is not enough.
Aparna Krishnan
I have seen a few villages across the country.
We settled in one, and spent fifteen years there, and that is all I have been
able to understand in some depth. It takes a very long time to be able to shed
one's educated preconceptions and see through to the simply and brilliant
clarity of the village mind. I am honestly still grappling with this.
Aparna Krishnan
My village is a fairly representative village I
would think. Almost on the bus route. 50km from a town Tirupathi. Typical
government schools. Everything typical.
Mohammad Chappalwala
Sasi Kp I hear you and understand. Aparna
Krishnan has been misunderstood in this whole thread.
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan
Aparna Krishnan there is something
called longitudinal study. That is to study one sample over time. There is
something called cross section study, that studies many samples at one point in
time.
For understanding cause effect longitudinal study is the only
way to knowledge.
I say with this confidence of field study.
So no need to get defensive about 1 sample over 15 years you
have unique data.
Sasi Kp
Spend some time in a Muslim village in Gujarat waiting
for justice or a Dalit village facing suppression by the upper castes or a
north eastern village where the people are subjected to violence by the Indian
army, or a village like Idinthikkarai where ordinary women, children and men
are imposed with sedition laws and declared as anti nationals. Your village
dominated by Brahminical values is nothing very special to generalise.
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan
So your one sample is the world?
Sasi Kp Beg your pardon? I did not get it.
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan
After all you have a few sample
points of data. How can that be a universe of data points. Your sample is no
typical sample either. To just trump Aparna data with your data is nonsense.
Both have relevance depending upon what one is trying to analyse.
Aparna Krishnan
Sasi Kp, my panchayat has no brahmins except me ! This is a dalit village we
live in. Poor, assetless, wise and wonderful. We do what we can (very little
maybe) to restore resources and livlihoods. There are problems and we try to
address them. And I do what I can to show that they hold the wisdom of the
country that we have lost. That is all. Like I said I have nothing to defend. I
have my stories. No, I have not visited all the villages of the country. I am
not even interested in proveing anything.
Sasi Kp
My data is related to the struggle for justice. I don't
glamourise `village' just because one is stationed in a village.
Aparna Krishnan ok.
Aparna Krishnan
the day people stopped seeing only the
'oppression and depression' and also saw the vast philosophical and ethical
treasures the villages hold, that day india will come into her own. (i am not
denying the criminal poverty, and unforgivable resource depletion. for which
personally and collectively we need to challenge modernity and
industrilisation, and bring back austerity and simplicity as virtues. that or
nothing.)
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan
So how does that become typical
because you are fighting injustice. The issues causing angst are not limited to
what you saw.
Unless you want to talk about the structure of injustice without
content. In which case the eternal drama triangle of victim, oppressor, rescuer
is there.
If Aparna is drawing inference from her village you cannot trump
that with obscure data derived from fighting for justice elsewhere.
Why is it your experience cannot complement what she is saying?
Sasi Kp
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan, please read the debate once
again. My questions and points are well established. If you can see them, fine.
If you don't, perhaps some day in future.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Sasi Kp "In front of RSS headquarters
in Nagpur, they had built a statue for Godse." Can you substantiate this
claim? Just to be clear, we are talking about RSS here, not Hindu Mahasabha.
Seems anyone can say anything and get away with it these days and this
perpetuate myths and fallacies.
" How about the RSS person who killed Gandhi? " I
quote Wikipedia here - " He left RSS in the early 1940s to form a militant
organization Hindu Rashtra Dal." 1940 is well before the assassination in
1948.
" I am just curious about whether your have seen pamphlets
and posters by the Sangh Parivar saying that Muslims and Christians are not
Indians? "
Looks like we have another hit-and-run. If you are looking for
the RSS standpoint on an issue you have to ask the top echelons like Mohan
Bhagwat or the spokespersons, not some small time Pracharak or Sevak. Bhagwat
has clearly stated all Indian Muslims and Christian are Hindus. That is his
definition of Hindu, he never stated what you claim.
As for Beef curry eating rights. Just as the state can impose
laws favoring Beef industry, it can impose a law taking it away. Among all the
Human rights issues in the country, you've picked the most important of all -
of beef lovers and their right to enjoy their steak. Wow!
About the comparison between Ramayana, Mahabharata with Batman,
Superman and Dharma with Warfare...I'll let you wallow in your ignorance.
Aparna Krishnan
Regarding goraksha, please refer to Kumarappa's
note. These bans are mindless. Unless cows reenter economy, through a
change of development paradigm itself, what do you expect village people to do.
How will they maintain unproductive male calves - whenthey are barely
maintaining themselves.
All unthought out measures, half baked. Because
people do not have the courage to see that is is needed is now reduction,
simplification, and giving up things. The earth has been overburdened beyond
her ability to take.
Sasi Kp
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy, I like you for exhibiting
slightly better Sanghi argument. Right now, I am on my way to catch a train.But
I do not have to substantiate with you about the Godse statue, or the Godse
temple or the Godse bridge. Please search on your own. There are also different
Sanghi publications which have brought out articles justifying Godse. In fact a
leader of BJP in Kerala even stated in print that the idea was not to kill
Gandhi, but the real target was Nehru. I do not wish to discuss with your
leader Mohan Bhagwat. But in case, he wishes to discuss with me, please ask him
to invite me and send me a flight ticket. Since you have not answered my other
questions and placed only some assertions, I do not wish to respond to those.
Anyway, nice meeting you. I have to rush now. You know there are several
Sanghis who are paid to do full time job to discuss with people like me.
Unfortunately, I can not spend full time on the face book. So please excuse me.
Will definitely meet later. And I will also wait for you to make sure that I
wallow in my ignorance. Spit out your argument, rather than making such
threatening assertions, boy. Bye.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Nityanand Jayaraman Regarding PUCL
report..Is this some constitutional body or authority? Anyone with political
common sense knows that JNU is a left bastion. Two of the member of this tribunal
are associated with JNU and not to mention Aruna Roy. It is almost a rule of
the thumb these days that if anyone is winning foreign awards like the French
Legion of Honor or being shortlisted for Nobel prize or Time's '100 most
influential people in the world' they are openly, secretly or unknowingly
serving a foreign agenda. APCO branded Modi cannot be spared either!
" At this meeting, a diabolical plan was drawn and
disseminated to the top 50 leaders of the BJP/RSS/BD/VHP, on the method and
manner in which the 72-hour-long carnage that followed was to be carried out.
" Is this gathered from a sting operation? Does this quality under any
standards of investigative journalism?. We have long ears indeed!. Yes, the
riots are a tragedy. But, when we talk of mobilization of crowds in the
post-Godhra riots in all fairness we have to talk about mobilization and
pre-planning of a large crowd carrying petroleum in jerry cans that brought the
train to a halt at 7.40 in the morning and burnt it down after stone pelting.
The Banerjee report that followed which tried to shift the blame of fire on a
cooking stove inside the train and not to mention the story of abduction of a
Ganchi muslim girl being the precurser for the train burning were all proven to
be cooked up farce to blacken the majority community. No one wants to talk
about these things.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Sasi Kp I do not care for a
political party like BJP which changes hues as situation demands. I have
searched and not found any material that point to your claims so the ball is on
your court. What you mean by 'Sangh' ? Which all Hindu organizations fall under
the 'Sangh' umbrella? How about ISCKON? I'm not trying to sell RSS here and
neither am I a Sanghi, but just questioning the assumptions and malicious
propaganda against them. People seem to boast and preach about love,
spirituality etc where they are the doves and RSS is obvious anti-thesis or
devil. My question is have these people done a fraction of what RSS volunteers
have done for community service, disaster relief, swarajya etc?. Let us not
forget that RSS played a key role in liberating Portuguese colonies Dadra,
Nagar Haveli and Goa when the Western Allied nations were backing Portugal and
preaching to us about this apparent grave violation of Gandhian 'Ahimsa'
principles by India. Surely we've been taken for a ride.
Aparna Krishnan
Glad that BJP has exposed itself to its own
people very quickly - post the clear pro-corporate stance on Land Acqusition,
and now GM seeds. We need to thanks for this state of affairs both the Party as
well as the many many voters who brought it in ... But we are going to pay in
blood, no doubt.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Aparna Krishnan More than emphasis
on Ban on cow Slaughter the emphasis on decreasing the number of imported cow
and promoting disease resistant Desi cows. Western cow milk has proven to cause
more problems that good. India is the number 2 Beef exporter after Brazil
today. So much for the Holy cow. "How will they maintain unproductive male
calves - when they are barely maintaining themselves." That's a good
question and needs deliberation. My suggestion would be to rethink about
Organic farming where cows play an integral role as in the old days and reduce
the mass utilization of animal products and focus on food-crops.
Aparna Krishnan
Let the PM do all that - and take on the
corporates head on as will be needed. Till them let them stop all drama till then.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Sasi Kp Sharing propaganda movies
like the first video serves no purpose. There has to be a nuanced discussion
about the entire Babri-Masjid without banalities like love/hate/sanghi type of
arguments. There is a historical baggage in this issue which cannot be ignored.
On the documentary you directed, it raises questions about the larger problem
of remand prisoner in Indian prisoners and there is a movement on for scrapping
the archaic laws which justify remand prisoners. I however different with your
basic premise on the Babri-Masjid issue.
Sasi Kp
Naveen, how about destruction of over 300 churches and
worship places of Adivasi Christians and Dalit Christians by the RSS, VHP and
Bajrang Dal in Kandhamal?
Sasi Kp
If you think all these are just propoganda, please come
with me. I will take you to the victims who are still crying for justice.
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy
Sasi Kp You seem to having quite a
lot of time for someone in a rush. So would you like to substantiate your
earlier claims about RSS now? Why are you jumping from one issue to another? No
issue can be perceived with clarity if you see them in green or red tinted
glasses as you seem to do. Why are you giving inflated numbers like 300
Churches from Christian propaganda sites? Every act of communal violence has a
prelude. You only talk about the affect effects while ignoring the prelude. You
are trying to portray a story where Hindus go about randomly persecuting any
minority they find. Why don't you talk about the prelude of Kandhamal violence.
Who killed Swami Laksmananada and why?
Kompella Sarma I agree ghar wapasi is not correct. Can everyone
agree to,get law of anti conversation. This will stop both sides. But i find
these minority's against this law, I don't know why.
...
Balasubramaniam Thyagarajan The question is defining force, trickery, allurement. These gory details never get discussed.
All discussions are taken into some ideal nonsensical plane, bereft of horrible details.
This hypocrisy is the root of all evil.
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