Sunday, 6 November 2016

Castes and Hindutva

Do you think caste could be fighting Hinduism’s battle?
Caste has been so discredited and so heavily politicised that you shouldn’t be talking of how caste is influencing politics, but how politics is influencing caste. But caste does resist Hindutva. That is why Hindutva-wallahs are against caste also. But a wider vision, an alternative vision, will come through sects and diversified belief systems.

Ashish Nandy
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Hindutva against Caste? What is he smoking?!
Aparna Krishnan But caste with its infinite diversities will resist the homogenization of Hindutva.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan Hindutva aka Varnashramam aka Social Stratification by Birth aka Caste.
Aparna Krishnan But Hindutva is also about a homogenized definition of Hindusism. And that cannot co-exist with the infinite jatis. That very contradiction may defeat them.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan no no no; Hindutva is homogenized religion and not castes. That's what they are peddling.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, Hindutva is peddling a homogenized religion. The million different jati paramparas will not be homogenized. And that jati framework may be what will finally stop Hindutva in its tracks.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan possibly; but with "modernity" people with lost roots gravitate toward Hindutva!
Aparna Krishnan Those lost to modernity are the curse of this country. The hope both against Hindutva and against modern rootless policies both lie in the rooted people of villages - rooted in their gods and in their soil.
Aparna Krishnan Somehow they need to take the reins. Or we are finished.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula There was no Caste as we know it before 200AD. There are no references to it in Sangam literature. That's the ideal society we want. But one step at a time...
Aparna Krishnan I see. But jatis is part of a society - various groups with their own gods and their own practices and network. Horizontal, and not vertical. That strengthens a society, does it not.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula It's a social construct that has had a good run but has to be addressed with time.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula It also caused more damage than good!
Aparna Krishnan The jatis will not go. Every community has its own god to begin with. Marriages will largely happen within. We need to make the vertical, horizontal.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan they will go, nothing is permanent. If making them horizontal is a first step, fine.
Aparna Krishnan We'll start there. Once that is done, I would be happy. I think many communities with their own practices and support networks is a strength - if the negatives are removed.
Damodara Savarkar Reddy it's like ending sections of work, and their wisdom linage. and their unification under one tent is not artificial, but inversely, they all originated from unity , for unity... that is way of our life.
Aparna Krishnan Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula, traditional knowlege resides in the jatis.
Aparna Krishnan :) - but you want to 'wipe away jatis' in this thread !
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula That's why it's important to document all of that. The knowledge can stay but not sure about the Castes as such
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I'm telling what's going to happen.
Aparna Krishnan maybe - time will tell ! we'll be gone by then of course !!
Damodara Savarkar Reddy documentating, formalising knowledge is artificiality, which doesn't preserves, true essense, spirituality... only succession, and practicing, worshipping that knowledge do.
Aparna Krishnan yes, documentation does not gell somehow, These are living traditions which will be protected if the community is protected.
Aparna Krishnan The last of the skilled rope weavers in our area dies. I could have video taped it. But I am glad I did not. If we cannot save those communities, we deserve to lose their knowlege.,
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் Some gnani would always pass by in any literature, saying just like all material caste is also immaterial. Thats it. When on gets into 50 it is so. From within caste everyone moves out. Reviving that tradition as against Social security, Atal Pension Yojana is sufficient..
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் tell us a reference to Caste in Sangam literature.

Everyone knows which Sangam literature it is.
Damodara Savarkar Reddy Hindutva doesn't has contradiction about varna. nor those people who are gravitating towards hindutva are due to modernity, or lost roots. to say, they are people truly rooted to their own roots... and our spirituality, dharma.
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் Several Kudis do come in Sangam literature. Aren't the kings there the adhikks jatis.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் read what I've written above. "Caste as we know it"

Caste is not the same as Kudi.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Damodara Savarkar Reddy yes they are. That's why you see them parroting what the RSS preaches.
Aparna Krishnan Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Damodara Savarkar Reddy, my village people would not gravitate towards Hindutva. They will not stand the violent stands against Muslims for instance. The Muslins are the next village, and another village a bit away. They are all part of the fabric in a deep rooted manner. They are the local child medicine purveyors for instance and come to all homes with their bundle. My villagers are deeply rooted in Gangamma and Vinayaka, and need no Hindutva.
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் Ya caste is not kudi. Its English that's Tamil. Please read kudimai kudiseyal vagai. What caste might have been in Europe may differ from Jati or Kudi. In Trikadugam, u have reference to tholkudi. The word kudi has been used to denote others things with regard to context.
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் There is a Mural, சலம் பற்றி சால்பில செய்யார் மாசற்ற குலம் பற்றி..
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம்
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் One refrain from doing those undeserved acts in an attempt to lead ones life in accordance to his kula.
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் குடிபிறப்புதான்.
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் அடுக்கிய கோடி பெறினும் குடிப்பிறந்தார்
குன்றுவ செய்தல் இலர்.
ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் One who is born into a kudi, would not indulge in misdeeds even if they get several crores.
Damodara Savarkar Reddy Caste System is not bad, But the scam that made it hereditary is the real Evil. You cannot tame the evil till you identify the God in that. Soon there will be a generation, who will not be defensive about the caste system.Our history is full of icons who have chosen the caste of their choice....Balmiki, Vishwamitra, Parashuram, Peshwas are just few among them!
Damodara Savarkar Reddy Nandy has little Indian about him and is highly inaccurate. Qualifies him to be a great intellectual among India's dogmatic leftists. 

ஸ்ரீராமதாஸ் மகாலிங்கம் That their santhathi would suffer is a big deterrent in stopping people doing things that may also unlawful. It is a pride to live up to the standards of living for many who have sense of belonging to their tradition. Even today jatis could be shown their right path.
Manu Kumar Let's open source the caste system :) just a light-hearted comment
Manu Kumar Well things in a proprietary system are closed/confidential... in an open source system anybody interested could gain the required knowledge and skills...
Damodara Savarkar Reddy so, apart from theoritical... can you explain how that 'open sourced' system preserve it, and work? remember... ancient system is not for exclusifieng, and restricting knowledge, like so called closed softwares... but it is distribution of knowledge, work, in which ever one has great work to do in society, with self respect.. so it is actually true distributive, collaberative than present systems, and much more open, distributive than open source softwares : )
Manu Kumar A counter question: do you think a Brahmin priest would have or will take a dalit as a disciple? Even today, how many places exist where a dalit can learn how to perform duties of a priest?
Damodara Savarkar Reddy I am a shudra... and i myself does never want to be a priest... why i have to? doesn't i have the responsiblity to carry on knowledge, and vrutti, work, that passed to me by my ancestors? does i have to end that succession, and destroy knowledge of that vrutti, and thus do injustice to those who protected it?? and i oppose if those brahmins come and occupy lands, and start mimmicking agriculture, which is my vrutti. this system is perfect model to protect, and transmit knowledge of relevent vruttis to successors, and thus make village self sufficient with every one doing their work. there is no ranking of which work is greater, but it is about collective working in a village.
Damodara Savarkar Reddy and thus said, If a person who is so called Bramhin by birth doesn't allow another person to enter a temple, that fake priest is the basest of them all!!
Manu Kumar Ok... i think you like everyone else should have a choice. In the past, generations past, the choice would have been between the limited options of which priest would be a very high position. Now those barriers are gone in cities but not so in villages, I believe. Maybe Aparna Krishnan can throw some light on that...
Manu Kumar I see you have a very different perspective and position.... :)
Aparna Krishnan jatis need to be horizontal. and they need to assure livlihoods for all. dignified livlihoods.
Aparna Krishnan i dont know is 'priests were the highest'. folk stories would usually describe a poor brahmin ! knowlege was supposed to go with poverty to maintain balance. technically. in our village the shudras are more powerful as the naidus own land unlike the poor temple priest.
Aparna Krishnan one needs to understand from the ground, and from the village - theory only misleads badly. never trust a sociologist !
Manu Kumar Hmmm... i am honestly very ignorant as i am, must admit city bred and raised as an arya samaji... that's why i said a light-hearted comment initially... :)
Aparna Krishnan one needs to understand on the ground. each ground may be a little different.
Manu Kumar But since i got into it, let me just say that I believe i do believe people should be able to choose the work they want to do, and no work should bestow a higher 'status' to any person...
Aparna Krishnan My village people would respect any system that assures dignified livlihoods for all. Right now they are all schooled and 'mobile', but unemployed and unemployable. This 'mobility' becomes meaningless on the ground. One always needs a grounded perspective. And the questions and the answers need to come from the ground.

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