Castes and confusions in modern times.

Aparna Krishnan 13 September 2015 at 05:45 ·

We are all shudras now. The farmer is a good shudra who produces food. The brahmins-by-birth, who learn modern industrial processes in their IITs and RECs and IIMs, are bad shudras who produce plastics and climate-change as they rake in their salaries.

A brahmin is only he who gives his deep and disciplined learning to society, and lives on bhiksha given by the society. The deep humility that asking for bhiksha gives alone will keep the deep learning from transforming into arrogance.

Rama Subramanian The trouble Aparna is we have an outdated and regional idea of chaturvarna superimposed over a large area that has diversity as it's uniqueness and then draw broad generalisation as inferences... Our social structures everywhere didn't adhere to this framework of chaturvarna - acknowledging that is the first step. Bereting one group of people called by a term that has many meanings in many places - brahmins were priests in some places, ministers elsewhere and traders in another location - with A ideal definition is another problem. There is no dogmatic ideal theory that governed the life choices of people in this land at any point, these were periodically derived as people adopted to changes... The only unchanging part as I understand is the sense of ethics that holds good to emperors of old and eswaramma today. Let's stop idealising or victimising people with social theories. That is what colonials did and our academics still do to some extent. Freedom from outdated social theory also will help us reclaim the mind space to celebrate diversity in ourselves and others around us

Vidyasankar Sundaresan Texts like Apastambha and AshvalAyana sUtra-s say that bhikshA, dAna and daksiNA should be the sources of livelihood for Brahmins. But these texts also presume varNa by birth, so people don't like them nowadays. So we've thrown the baby, the bathwater and the bathtub into the trash.

Claude Alvares Are you now writing a new upanishad? And where are the things you promised me?

Gyan Mitra Not so straight forward. In the long past, Brahmins were respected and honoured because they applied their mind for the best outcome of society. The community provided the best food and ghee which enabled the Brahmin to remain low nitrate and thus be creative, intuitive and clairvoyant. Brahmins became badmash because of rising environmental toxicity, due to use of ' FOSSIL FUEL' in other parts of the world ( which came to regions of verdant nature to get corrected ) . Our ancestors knew about buried coal and oil but never exploited it because they knew it was toxic. Firewood cooking and clay pots helped prepare quality food due to the Carbon Dioxide and nature chemistry embedded in the clay. The use of herbs and fruit to maintain good health was understood by them. Due to disappointing society for hundreds of years, Brahmins are hated and not trusted anymore. Even if some Brahmins learn how to keep their micro environment clean and contribute positively, they are no more sustained by society and knowledge is exploited by corporate businesses who patent and lock up advanced knowledge or use it secretly for commerce. Arrogance is a function of increased pollution and definitely not an outcome of grand knowledge which only makes one more humble. The mood states of Kaama, Krodha, Lobha, Mada, Moha, Matsara are well defined by Carbon to Nitrogen ratio and behaviour goes off balance due to man made chemical pollution affecting homeostasis. Love becomes Lust only when environment toxicity rises. Escalating toxicity leads to violent sex, rape, homosexuality ( in the next generation ) , pedophilia and finally Necrophilia. Can you imagine that there is a co-relation between the use of C.N.G. ( Compressed natural gas ) and rise of violence against women, perversions and incredible cruelty during attack ? Nature is digital and the first toxicity band is connected with Kaama. Brahmins today who seek BHIKSHA do not get it and instead invite stones and abuse due to the past neglect of society. People simply say rudely, " be glad we allow you do do PUNYA "

Om Prakash

December 28, 2009 at 9:49 pm

Hoya, It is the best conversation I have witnessed on the web in some time. My best compliment to Adarsha for bringing out the reality of cast as it is today, however permit me to share my own village experience of cast. To begin I was drilled by my mother, aunt, grandmother about my cast and gotra and the variation within them. No one ever told me that my cast made me better or superior. I was taught to greet my elders and teachers by bowing and touching their feet. Curiously my teachers were of the lower casts (which made no difference to my family or me); Two richest family in the village were from the cast of Kanu (vaisya) and dhobi (shudra), no one accused my family of being rich or powerful, I have no recollection of any one of my child hood friends wheather they were of any cast wanting to be of any other cast. The lowest were Dome, they herded pigs, I was not allowed to play with pigs, for that matter with dog or donkey either, I had to bathe if I touched them, but that was not true of playing with children. I have no memory of ever be scolded for playing with ahir, suri, dhobi, dome or dusadh child.

Adarsh’s accusation that higher casts colluded with the British has much merit, all we need to do is look at the people who were Zamindars. Most Zamindars were high casts but not all. Furthermore, most of the large land owners were of Vaishya or Shudra Varna. To my knowledge there was only one brhman and one Kshatriya large land owners in my subdivision. It should be rememberd that the indipendence movement was also led and supported by the high casts, furthermore after indipendence I do not remember high cast going on the march to preserve their priviledges. I believe Adarsh may wish to consider what the cast based traditional priviledges were supposed to be.

I witnessed a conversation between two of my seniors at BHU, (1970), one a MA student of economics, the other a Ph.D. student in science, both of brhman cast, one saying to the other ‘what could be more shameful than a rich Brahman’, curiously there was no argument or disagreement on that point. The priviledge of a Brhman was to be the purveyors of knowledge, Kshatriya of to provide order or justice, Vaishya to conduct of commerce, Shudra of manufacturing of all trade goods. Shudras were the master crafts men of India. People tend to forget that brahman did not rule, teaching was their lively hood. Their livelyhood became endangered with the growth of Budhim in India. It is my thesis that Brhmans became farmers to retain their vaidic knowledge. If we look at the Indian culture, teaching and religious ceremonies became the province of Bhikshuks. Keep in mind the great universities of Nalanda and Taxshila were budhist in their origin. Arabs, and Mughals brought their own Ustads and their own system of Talim. Brhmins did not benifit from the Budhist or Muslim tradition of teaching. They were the out siders. During the British raj there were many brhman kings (king of Darbhanga, Benares, Jaunpur etc.), and even more important graduated of the Calcutta University. Please note that in the late 19th century and early 20th century the intellectual capital of India was Calcutta and not Varanasi. Please also note that cast and especially untouchability was being challanged and eliminated by our own leaders (Brhma Samaj, Arya Samaj and even RSS). I do not know of brhman scholors who would have supported cast based untouchability.

Much has been said about Brahmins, Kshatriya and Vaishya and their misconduct during and pre colonial times. I have never seen any analysis based upon rulers of the country and the value they imposed on the Indian people (who believed in Dharma). Perhaps it should be noted that the hindu kings engaged in a 1300 years of survival with the Arabs, Persians and the Mughals. The influence of musalman civilization, we tend to forget. Please note the language of Indian Mughal court was Persian and Arabic. Howcome no one holds the rulers responsible for their misconduct. We take the destruction of the Hindu temples in stride. Has any one read one article lamenting the destruction of the Hindu temples or for that matter the destruction of the budhist shrines or the Zarthustrian places of worship. My own family uprooted it self many times to escape the Mughals.

I believe Adarsh is also trapped by the western calculation of linear hirarchy, for he continues to look at the cast as high and low and not as interdependent. My village was a self sustaining ecology, where each family had a role. Those who consider Brhman to be at the appex of the cast system have not seen their poverty, their helplessness, their quite desperation, their dependence on community for their sustenance or have appriciated the disregard among brhmans, for the brhmans who sold out and became ‘Babu’ during the british rule. Even more so perhaps they forget that no hindu could be cremated without the fire from the hearth of a Dome. So I submit for your consideration, how high am I in this Hindu hirarchy, when I must approach the lowest in utter humility and beg for an ember from his hearth to cremate my father, whose last rites can not be sanctified without the cooperation of the lowest. How high am I when in the village festival I can not start eating unless the lowest has been served the same food as on my banana leaf, and I may not getup from the line until every member has completed their meal includint the lowest, who may be some where at the end of the line, or even seperated from the rest. I have often wondered of the tradition of the five feasts, which I participated in, before my twice born ceremony. These feasts were given by the low cast of my village, I called them Kaka and Kaki, Bhaiya and Bhauji, it was bitter sweet, in retrospect, they were saying goodby to me. My ceremony, indicated the beginning of a discipline, not only of my family heritage but also of the cultural heritage which belonged to all casts. There seemed to be roles for various casts, their participation was required for the ceremony to be sanctified.

No one could defend the untouchability among humans, it is illogical, unethical, and against the dharma. How can any one in his right mind talk of high and low birth when every thing is the manifestation of one Brhma. If any one must be blamed for the existence of untouchables then it must be those who benifited from this and perhaps we should explore when it became codified and accepted as normal.

1Kiran Kumar Yajamanyam

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