Are all those who stood with Mr. Hussain on his right to disrobe our Hindu goddesses for his creative freedom, also now standing with Mr Sardana when he takes on the Muslim religious figurines ?
Many people strongly spoke for Mr. Hussains right on my wall, defending their brief with shlokas from Kamasutra and with photographs from Khajuraho.
#DisgustedWith #IntellectualDishonesty
Rahul Banerjee nice one. actually all gods and goddesses, regardless of religion and even the secular ones like Marx, Lenin and Stalin, need to be assigned to the waste paper basket!!!
Aparna Krishnan Thats a personal position, no gods, one god, two gods, many gods.
But the behavious one demands towards ones own, one has to be prepared to offer to anothers. That simple logic is sadly absent in certian circles.
Times are in a ferment, and many bluffs are going to be called. As many many voices are entering the debates. And many grounded rooted voices which were for long supressed by more sophisticated ones, usually of rootless beings, offering some theories and a lot of hot air. Looking forwards to many learnings in the days and years to come with the clash of civilizations which is now beginning.
Rahul Banerjee its been going on for ages. only now with social media its become more visible.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, but their volume was kept muted by necessity. Now its more level.
Also the subaltern, in the regional and local sense are coming into their own, finally tired of listerning to a centralizes discourse.
Culture and religion are the planks that are going to be claimed, and held onto on strong ways, sometimes extreme ways. All else has been taken by them under the large homogenizing centralizing processes. This is all the people have today.
Rahul Banerjee people have always had that. as capitalism pulls the economic rug from under the feet of the people they are falling back on religion for salvation. but that will not provide salvation. that is why along with capitalism all this religious and secular trash also needs to be junked. back to nature is the answer but we dont have the guts for that either. so we are doomed.
Aparna Krishnan The people of this land are rooted in religion. Every village. every home. Since the beginning of time. The trees, the rivers, the rocks, the wells, the tanks, the directions, the animals are all worshipped. To ask to junk that is to ask to junk the people. Mr. Marx suggested that long ago.
Rahul Banerjee Marx unfortunately replaced it with his own millennial utopia☺
Aparna Krishnan Each civilization has its own roots. To understand those and work with that is what will lead to sustained action.
Vinod Kumar VP Aren't these violations comparatively very small compared to what happened to certain class of women under the Devadasi system right inside the temples for aeons...
Aparna Krishnan Two wrongs dont make a right.
Vinod Kumar VP Then as a social worker you should make posts criticizing those ancient customs and practices like casteism, untouchability, sati, devadasi, subjugation of women and widow (many of which are still prevailing) while justifying overtly religion, culture and traditions which propped these highly inhuman things. One needs to be objective. Mind you this country consists of 80% OBCs, Dalits & Tribals and most of them and their women were the worst affected for centuries under a sick, regressive religious regime which rarely exhibited humane-ness.
Aparna Krishnan I choose my battles.
Aparna Krishnan I work with my ground understandings of realities and priorities. Please post on what you wish, I will not take the liberty of instructing you.
Vinod Kumar VP So ur battles are not fought on the basis of objective reasoning but on the basis of 'realities' and 'priorities' viewed thro' a glass tinted with elitism. By overtly eulogising the ancient customs and practices we are only keeping these subaltern, unsuspecting rural folks under feudalism and casteism and doing complete dis-service to them and mankind.
Aparna Krishnan I have no interest in defending myself. Or in this sub thread with you. My real concern is just ordinary cloth bags. Can you help me sell cloth bags ? The main head spinning concern for us is eroding rural livlihoods. The women are stitching them and sustaining their families. I badly need orders for them. If you are interested in helping I will send you the portfolio.
Aparna Krishnan Only ground action counts.
Vinod Kumar VP But ground action should be progressive. One can't push down their throat feudalistic things and stop making them come out of the rut they fell because of those very feudalistic stone-age customs, practices, etc. These old generations may accept them b...See more
Aparna Krishnan Where do you live and work ? I hope you are based with the community you speak for, and your understandings are drawn from that living experiance.
Vinod Kumar VP Does that matter at all. Doing progressive social work and at the same time harping on feudalistic things never go hand-in-hand.
Aparna Krishnan It matters. I will stop here. If you wish to help with livlihoods, I can help you help. thanks.
Saraswati Kavula Vinod Kumar VP I think here it was about Rohit Sardana 's comments on the use of certain language to describe the goddess one set of people believe in. He simply questioned if anyone would dare to do the same with Musilm women figures like Bibi Fatima. So that is what Aparna was questioning. So You can ask the same questions what you asked Aparna to those who are targettting Rohit Sardana that instead of Eugolising Bibi Fatima they should be highlighting the plight of the Muslim women under their Burquas and the repressive Islamic fundamentalism that passes off as True Islam.
Paranthaman Sriramulu Worshipping of stone, cow, land, sun, sea, river, pond... was there much before Mahavira or Buddha. There are plenty of saints like them. With kings patronage, they become sects. There was no organized religions before invention of Christianity. Later Islam. Both destroyed many religions and culture. And sickulars here showing their true colors at every event.
Rahul Banerjee Buddhism was a well organised religion well before christianity despite its core message being one of rejection of God. The Charvaks were atheists and predated Buddhism. So india has had both atheism and organised religion along with the hindu and local religions, including those of the adivasis, from ancient times.
Aparna Krishnan Charvaks were a tiny fringe and hardly fit to be shown as a real part of the diverse beleifs of this land.
Paranthaman Sriramulu Yes, partially it can be argued as organized however there is no concept of god to them. They don't have Jesus (God and son) or Allah via Mohammed. Dharma is the core for all bharat religions or culture.
Aparna Krishnan To understand the centrality of Dharma, one has to move to the hinterlands. To learn. In humility. The timeless traditions are alive today, anchored in dharma and devudu.
Paranthaman Sriramulu Yes, was fortune to live in village. First generation who moved to city too had it. Last 20 years, destruction called as development killed most.
Kannan Thandapani Why do you deny Charvakas their place?
Rahul Banerjee The spiritual scholars of their time considered the charvaks to be important enough to go to great lengths to argue with them.
Aparna Krishnan Charuvaks were fringe, thats a fact. Even today please find me one atheist in your village (apart from yourself !). There is none in my village. There is no home where the lamp is not lit in the evening, even just the small mud lamp with a spoon of pongamia or castor oil. I asked one of my friends who has worked with many artisans across many villages across nothern india if he had even met an atheist villager. He sad, 'Not one'. This is the fad of some modern educated people, thats all. Right through history its similarly been fringe. On this land, and soil. Essentially religious.
Rahul Banerjee So were the sages who created the vedas and upanishads because the vast majority neither understand nor follow their philosophy.
Paranthaman Sriramulu That is why we have Ramayana and GIta, We have pattimandram, explanation sessions(upanyasam) during festival times, street dramas. Villages in south India have one month draupathi festival where entire Mahabhartham is explained, acted and celebrated. It is about dharma.
Aparna Krishnan Rahul Banerjee. says who ? In the village, the esoteric concepts on Geeta are understood and lived like nowhere else. They do not know Sanskrit, but the essential philosophy of this land, the theory of karma, and runam and dharma has permeated the very soil. People hand back to me, what I learn in Sanskrit from the swamiji. And their lessons go deeper, because they live the teachings of dharma. Every daily act of courageous giving is done in simplicity, preceded by 'this is dharma'. I relearnt my Ch 13 of Bhagavad Geetha in my village.
Yes, the Mahabharata and its millions tales anchor the concepts in ctories that are shared into the nights.
http://paalaguttapalle.blogspot.in/.../eashwaramma-and...
Paranthaman Sriramulu In our village we have Dharmakatha, he is expert in gita. He is not brahmin also care taker of draupathi temple.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, this talk of brahminism is all from a disconnected understanding. In the village religion is far more nuanced and deeprooted.
People value their Geetha. The upper class educated activists come, and think that by abusing their scriptures and gods they are giving them value. By destroying a peoples roots one weakens them, thats all.
Aparna Krishnan Narayana Guru, Gandhi, worked on correcting the distortions in religion, not on abusing religion. That is what works on this land. A land where each person bows to a pervasive sense of divinity.
Paranthaman Sriramulu In fact, we don't have brahmin community around. Yes, we use their service for temple pujas and respect them. Village consists of farmers my community, weavers, carpentry and workers. Near by dalit colony. They do haircutting, funeral service, laundry services. Until recently we didnt have toilets, so no sewage network or another man needed to maintained it. All get turns in hosting temple yearly function. Each competing to do their best every year. God is carried to all streets.
Paranthaman Sriramulu Now dalits do farming as govt has given land to them.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, I know. thats how it is on the ground. We also have no brahmins in the entire panchayat (except yours truly). The main temple in the Reddy community has a Dalit priest. There is a story behind it. Brahins were imported once when a temple had to be inaugarated. They were also given respect and gift and sent away. They were from Tirumala, and they inaugarated the temple in the SC colony, ours.
Rahul Banerjee I spoke of the vedas and upanishads not being understood and followed and not the ramayana and mahabharata.
Aparna Krishnan The Gita is the essense of the Vedanta. " In the village, the esoteric concepts of the Gita are understood and lived like nowhere else. They do not know Sanskrit, but the essential philosophy of this land, the theory of karma, and runam and dharma has permeated the very soil. People hand back to me, what I learn in Sanskrit from the swamiji. ". I have appended a post.
The theoritical position that the Vedanta and scriptures are a seperate entity, and the practices of people a seperate entity is invalid if understood by living with them. It is a continuum.
This is similat to the invalid theory that academics present saying that 'folk' medicine and 'ayurveda' are at cross purposes. It is the same - ayurveda has just given a more structured form to the whole.
Rahul Banerjee Its not theory but fact that vedanta is not practised by the majority.
Aparna Krishnan Gita is Vedanta.
http://paalaguttapalle.blogspot.in/.../eashwaramma-and...
Eashwaramma and the Bhagavad Geeta
Rahul Banerjee Thats your theory and not fact.
Aparna Krishnan What is not fact ? That the Gita is the essence of Vedanta ? Or what Eashwaramma says in simple Telugu does not map onto that verse in the Gita ?
Aparna Krishnan I suggest that the fact that village people are steeped in spiritual understandings not be dismissed so casually and lightly. You could miss the country altogether.
Paranthaman Sriramulu Haha, Supreme authority of Vedas is saying via computer and all should accept as theory.
Aparna Krishnan Gita Dhyana Shlokas - Verse 4
सर्वोपनिषदो गावो दोग्धा गोपाल नन्दनः ।
पार्थो वत्सः सुधीर्भोक्ता दुग्धं गीतामृतं महत् ॥ ४॥
All the Upanishads are the cows, the milker is Krsna the cowherd, Partha is the calf, those of pure intellect are the enjoyers and the supreme nectar, Gita, is the milk.
Rahul Banerjee What people follow is their own understanding distilled mostly from the puranas, ramayana and mahabharata and has little to do with the vedas. That doesnt mean that their understanding is to be belittled. Neither does it mean that that understanding cant be critiqued.
Aparna Krishnan My question is not answered.
What is not fact ? That the Gita is the essence of Vedanta ? Or what Eashwaramma says in simple Telugu does not map onto that verse in the Gita ?
Aparna Krishnan From my understanding of the Vedanta, it is understood and lived. More than in many more erudite curcles
Rahul Banerjee The fact which you wilfully dont understand is that the local versions of religious practice have nothing to do with the vedas and upanishads. The gita has some part of the upanishadic philosophy but it also has a lot of the local stuff. You can draw parallels between the gita and eshwarammas religion but that doesnt mean that they are the same. Eshwaramma wouldnt have heard of the gita if it werent for you☺. Vedanta isnt followed even a wee bit by most people.
Paranthaman Sriramulu OK super authority
Rahul Banerjee if you had been following vedanta you would not be speaking in this way!!
Aparna Krishnan By repeating your statements, or by stateing my 'wilful misunderstanding', you are still not sunstantiating your statements.
Aparna Krishnan The division of Vedanta, Mahabhatrata, Local religions is a synthetic academic one. On the ground, in reality and on this land they flow into each other, and present the same truths differently.
This is not theory. This is ground understandin.
Rahul Banerjee It is a fact that the Vedas and Upanishads are different from local religious traditions and it is you who are obfuscating their distinctiveness wilfully. you are free to do so but that doesn't mean that I have to agree to such obfuscation.
Paranthaman Sriramulu Waste of time, from his home knows everything about India. Mainly my village. He knows my Dharmakatha.
Rahul Banerjee well you will have to provide proof that your village Dharmakatha mentions and elucidates the Vedas and Upanishads in a way that the people there can understand them to convince me that it is in any way related to them!! I have all respect for your dharmakatha but it is a pointless exercise to try and link it to the vedas and upanishads.
Paranthaman Sriramulu You are not super authority of Vedas or Upanishads to prove. I know what they are following. That is enough for me. If you are so particular then you learn from them.
Rahul Banerjee yes i am prepared to learn from them as i do from our village people here but i will not listen to bullshit that what they follow is the same as what is there in the Vedas and Upanishads!!!
Paranthaman Sriramulu Bullshit is cheap or useless? Very nice. Funny you claim to know about village. English educated class. No one forced to listen. Be in your own world.
Rahul Banerjee Bullshit literally is very valuable but in the figurative sense that i have used it here it means baseless claims. Anyway peace. We have had enough. let us all respect local religious traditions regardless of their vintage.
Aparna Krishnan Words reveal, and also carry tremendous power. I have never used the word BS in decades, because somewhere cowdung has become a very central part of life, and one subconsciously realized the meaninlessness of that word as an abuse. Every evening we put it beneath the lamp we light before the god. In every home. Every Friday we mop our homes with it. Every home. We layer our winnows with it. We use it for building homes. We also use it as a medicine. And its use in agriculture needs no mention. It simply ceases to be a word of disdain. Without one even realizing it.
Changes internalized will change vocabulary inself, as clothing, and as many other small almost invisble details of living.
And before your unshakeable conviction that village people, in word and practice know nothing of the Gita or Vedanta, I have nothing to say ! My own learning of 20 years has been contrary.
Kannan Thandapani I am surprised that this is a battle you've chosen to fight. I refuse to believe that people on their own will be outraged over a niche, elite art form...isn't it obvious that the outrages were manufactured for narrow political gains...be it over Hussain or Perumal Murugan or now Bhansali?
I doubt if your Eashwarammas and our Parvatis have the luxury to care a hoot for modern art or nudity or authenticity of movies (not that they shouldn't care). We live in a nation where we quietly watch history text books being twisted...I can't understand why we fuss about facts in art and fiction - an unreleased movie, which most of us have not seen and are unlikely to see.
I don't necessarily stand with Hussain or Sardana or Bansali (I can't even claim to fully know what they stand for), but I do support their right to express what they want to. If I find anything objectionable I'd criticize or ignore them but not deny them their say.
Art -be it the elite forms or folk forms - creates many stories. We have many Mahabharatas and many Ramanayas and many Gospels. Why would you want to give up that freedom to create and believe in multiple stories?
Aparna Krishnan People may ignore slights on their gods once, twice, a hundred times. but not forever. They relate deeply to their gods.
Also it is uncouth to mock at what people revere. It is mocking at people. Unless it is a case like untouchability, sato, societal wrongs, which need to be taken head on. I have no idea what Mr. Hussain was trying to take on.
Its not my battle pa, dont worry. I am trying to sell cloth bags, and give children milk. Some relief measures in a world spinning out of control. This is simply FB posts !!
Aparna Krishnan And also Kannan, it is not a non issue. A modern liberal, far removed from religion, or of an understanding of what religion means to people, making snide swipes is unacceptable. But people will react, it has gone on long enough. The reaction may also swing to the other extreme, the times ahead are unpredictable. Unless people learn to respect one another on this land.
A movie was named Sexy Durga. What for ? To mock at simple beliefs of people ? To mock at people.
I have heard Modern Educated Saviours of Society advise (poor) people to concentrate on literacy and not worry about their gods being abused. Very nice of them to suggest to the people, but people will take oun desicion on priorities. People have a clear and level headed sense of priorities. To understand them one has to enter their lives, in humility, and learn.
Paranthaman Sriramulu There would have riots and bomb blasts if sexy ayesha or molester Mohammed or free Mary named movies were released. There were many movies banned in India that were released in core Christian countries. A you tube clip of Mohammed killed few and paralysed many cities including Chennai. All the liberals and sickulars were supporting them. This is dangerous for this country. Majority cannot be treated like second class people in their own land.
Rahul Banerjee The majority happens to have a very high class culture and doesnt need to behave like hooligans. If the muzlims react violently against what they perceive as an insult to their religion then they are dealt with appropriately by the law and administration.
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