Wednesday, 18 November 2020

Padmavathi - Discussions


To mock at deeply held beliefs of a community in a book or a movie is not 'Creative Freedom'. It is Uncouthness.
A uncouthness that only the modern, deracinated liberal is capable of. My village people respect the rooted beleifs of others, because they have their own roots intact, and know the meaning of roots.
Khatija Rahman, Kongara Gangadhara Rao and 20 others
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  • Piyush Manush
    What was mocked
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    To understand that one needs to start from a position of essential respect for people, for their ways, their roots.
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  • Piyush Manush
    U do not know what was mocked
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  • Suresh Boyapati
    He knows everything what mocked 😕
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  • Meenakshi Negi
    The whole ideology of Sita and Sati has created this warped vision in the Culture of our society. can a woman not be in her integrity and yet be a complete person of freedom without having to succumb to prescribed prototypes? The ideology of Padmavati by Rajasthanis or a Bollywood actress playing her part in a role imperfect to the ideology cannot incite barbaric threats. Minds have to move beyond rootedness..
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    There are rooted ways of questioning. Kabir, Basavanna, Narayana Guru, Gandhiji.
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      Any rooted faculty other than in the highest consciousness is prone to error..
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      A society throws up its own who question and correct. We need to tune into those processes.
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  • Piyush Manush
    Amma u make a statement that starts with ..to mock .. what is being mocked is not being narrated nor answered and u bring in Kabir etc ..
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    I dont debate any more. The answers are best found on the ground, with the people. They are available to all who seek to learn from people, their practices, their gods, their customs. The only requirement is humilty and openness. Anyway, please treat the post as one with a wider message. Please ignore it if it seems meaningless.
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  • Piyush Manush
    I have only asked a question .. where is the debate .. so u do not know what is being mocked and went on to write the statement is it
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  • Meenakshi Negi
    It is always good though to scatter such thoughts sometimes I learn things I may have not appreciated earlier
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    I have learnt many things in my village. I share them, in case it gives someone else some sense of direction.
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      True but mere simplicity cannot be the lighthouse to intelligence..
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  • Jayshree Shukla
    But what should the punishment for being uncouth be? The Karni Sena is threatening to behead Deepika Padukone and Sanjay Bhansali. Elsewhere they have also threatened to cut Deepika's nose and ears like Shoorpnakha. One cannot lose perspective. Am no Bhansali fan. His movies are loud and gaudy and in bad taste and also stereotype communities. But one cannot lose perspective and demand their heads. That is far more than uncouth. It is criminal.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    They are goondas. I have not even discussed them here.The post is a more general post.
    The modern deracinated liberals are demanding something they call freedom of expression which to them includes painting gods in the nude, or twisting stories that people revere into cheap versions. That is simply an indication of their lack of culture, and total loss of roots. And sooner or later people will retaliate in ways we cannot predict. And I for one will not run to their defence. I expect civilized behaviour, I demand it. I understand the value gods have for the people of this land. Hindus or Muslims.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Respect for the common man, his beleifs and his practices is something the modern educated liberal simply does not have. Activist liberal, or mainstream liberal.
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    • Jayshree Shukla
      There are all kinds of people in this world. There are no monoliths so one should not fall into the trap of viewing all liberals as one. There are many shades of opinion there. Be that as it may, "retaliation in ways one cannot predict" cannot include violence. Violence cannot be excused. Because taste and interpretations of culture will vary, not just between cities and villages but also person to person. I recently saw pictures by Sanghi websites showing Gandhiji with foreign women. The pictures were photoshopped and in extremely bad taste. I was deeply offended. But I have not called for any heads. I am simply reiterating that violence under no circumstances is acceptable. I know that you in this post are not advocating violence. Just elaborating on another aspect 🙂
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      The common man thinks commonly and sometimes that is not the way of the truth, in fact most times..
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Jayshree Shukla
       Those a criminals and deserve the strongest punishment that the law can give. but as I said this post is not about them.
      It is about those who claim the right to paint Saraswathi in the nude, and suchlike. It is not just uncouth, it is deeply offending to the common man who is a sincere beleiver. The simple people of this land are religious in a deep and simple way.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Meenakshi Negi
       The common man thinks more wisely than the educated breed. His roots are intact. I have known both communities very closely.
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      Aparna Krishnan
       I beg to defer the educated or uneducated both can be commonly thinking.. commonness has not much to do with education or the lack of it
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      but have you known both communities equally closely ? That is important before you can have an opinion.
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      Aparna Krishnan
       yes indeed I do have some insight. Poverty and elitism are neighbours in India and there are crossovers on a daily basis.. of one has eyes to see and ears to hear both narratives speak..
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Equally. And one has to immerse. Once has to live among them. That is when an understanding of a community comes.
      Otherwise one can understand a small part, thats all.
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      Aparna Krishnan
       this may be true and may not be.. people can be married for decades and remain strangers.. we have to know that we do not know yet from that lack we function.. I admire your lifepath though I may not always agree to purist views on many subjects..
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  • Dipankar Khasnabish
    How do you define a community? And how do you define deeply held beliefs? And how do you define hurt?
    How much of these are based on information - both past and present?
    And why do we feel that the ones who are the creators will hurt the sentiments events without an inkling of the creation? And who are the ones who are custodians? Who appointed them?
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    One has to immerse in a community to understand. It is not abstract, it has to be experianced. I moved to a village 20 years ago, lived as a neighbour, drew water from the same well. Got the thatch on my roof repaired when they did, took my turn at the local temple when the plate came home. Through drought times caught water from the tanker at midnight. Listened to their tales through long afternoons and evenings. understood what mantrams means, what dharmam means, what place god has intheir lives.
    I really cannot explain more, nor do I wish to. There is no short cut to the learning.
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    • Meenakshi Negi
      Learning is never exhaustive
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    • Dipankar Khasnabish
      That is exactly I said, what may be sacred in one village may not be so in the adjoining one. And why then go for village, why not move to household or for that matter individuals?
      I am sure there will be at least one individual who will be offended by everything - so do we not do that? And what about the creative liberties? What about imagination? What about the same story being told by different people in a different manner? Where do we start and where do we stop?
      A case in point is cultural appropriation - now that is never-ending, as culture is never collective but individual.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      These are theoritical positions. You have to understand the truth on the ground. The English educated crowd is a miniscule minority in this land, and it is as unrepresentative of the country as possible.
      The stories from my village match the stories from friends who have also immersed themselves elsewhere. There is a commonality. I do not ask to be believed. But if you wish to understand, you will need to make the move to another world. The learnings and gains will be immense. It is recovery of roots.
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    • Dipankar Khasnabish
      This is exactly the problem I see in many cases - that one is theoretical, that one has to understand the truth, that the English educated people are not aware.
      This is exactly where the conversations - break down, on assumptions on others (and maybe about one's own self).
      BTW in India, it is assumed around 40% of the population is in the cities, and the large cities are like a mini country - with the economy itself upwards of USD 200B. There are stories and realities in cities - not all have no go to the villages to understand or appreciate them.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      No, one has to be a neighbour and co-exist with the community one wishes to speak of. Or to understand through someone who has co-existed, but that is very second hand.
      One can be a neighbour to IT colleuges and one understands that world. I have been there.
      One can then be a neighbour to the poor in the cities and understand that world.
      One can also stand outside, and see and help. That is laudable. But then one often only sees the poverty and misses many many riches, which come only in the nuances of day of day living.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      All these bytes will serve no purpose. If you wish to understand what I am saying you need to walk that mile. Yourself.
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    • Dipankar Khasnabish
      I don't wish to - the same way I am not asking someone else to walk my mile. I believe everyone has a journey, and no journey is superior to another one. Each on their own - so long they are not degrading the society.
      But again I suggest - don't assume who are the others, and what they are doing or not doing. We just don't know, even for our neighbors. People are complex - we just see the tip of it. So always best to remain at ideas and events level, below that it degenerates.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      You, or anyone, is not in my mind. To assume anything.
      My point is just that to comment on a community very removed from our, one needs to immerse. Otherwise ones understanding stays very partial, and misleading. One can see a wise and wonderful and poor community, as just poor.
      I am not asking you to move to a low income community, just saying that that complete engagement is what gives us the whole picture !
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    • Dipankar Khasnabish
      Physical movement is one part. Intellectual and emotional movement is also important. A perdon staying in a village may care the least about not having toilets and concomitant social boas, but we may see folka from outside coming and not just buold, but ensure they are used.
      If all has to physically immerse in something to feel and act, there will be logjam.
      We have to cricker, actor and politivian to comment on three moat popular topics in India.
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  • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
    You didn't even get to see what's there in the movie, yet you howl and cry that the respect is trashed.?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Please see the hashtags. This is a broader post. Saraswathi was painted in the nude by a celebrated prainter. The liberals defended him as claiming freedom of expression. I think its plain perversion to take on what people revere, and try ones 'freedom of expresion' there.
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      Aparna
       - First, you/anyone else have not seen the movie to jump the guns. I fail to understand, how it's broad anyways. Second, Padmavati is an imaginary folklore character. How altering imaginary character by a creator is a problem to everyone and the community?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      1. #RaniPadmavathi, #ProphetMohammed, #Saraswathi. I refer to the concept to denigrating objects of reverence.
      2. It seems as if she is revered locally. 'Folklore' characters can be. I will ask some local friends. If it turns out that people dont care (which given the emotions is unlikely) then the other two hashtags hold.
      This is not an unusual thing. Where Karva chauth is mocked at, Rakhi is mocked at, Gods are mocked at. When people, simple people, respect something, I will certianly not 'mock' it. I may question it with them.
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      First, you don't know what is mocked and whether it's really mocked in the first place. If you do, then you wouldn't have dodged Piyush's question by bringing needless references.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Cant you understand what I am saying.
      Please see what the post message is. And I have hung it on 3 pegs. If all are invalid, i will give you three more pegs.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      it is about a liberal disregard for beliefs of people. Full stop,
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      No, I can't. All I/anyone would understand is you're concerned that beliefs are mocked by the movie #padmavati, if you're claiming it is, then you should have seen the movie? If that's not the post is about, then do explain how Padmavati is a liberal disregard of beliefs of people.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I have explained that the post is not about Padmavati, that is a peg for the larger concern I have of people mocking at beliefs of simple people. If you prove me wrong here, I can remove this peg. May I leave the other two, or do you object to those also ?
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      Again a dodging. You have not answered how #Padmini hashtag is relevant and how are you not prejudiced in this post.
      Coming to Saraswati and MF Hussain, I don't accept his portraits as a great art, however it's his freedom of expression. And if you think what he drew is obscene and a mockery of belief, you should destroy the Temple Gopurams and shilas, there are far more obscene statues there...
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      One cannot keep refering to the Kamasutras. Or temple architechtures. In the present if people have ald not mock it, unless like untouchability it needed a clear attack.
      If you feel that painting Saraswathi or Durga in the nude is OK, given that all ordinary indians are deeply religious, we are on different pages. Lets just differ.
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      All religious Indians doesn't get to know or see MFs paintings on daily basis, it's not published in newspapers or scrolled in TV on daily basis for those to get offended. I'm an admirer of your posts and From your posts, I suppose people of Palleguttapalle have much other greater concerns worry about and better things to do rather worrying about some liberal painting their Sarawati or to worry if their Queen is depicted badly in a movie. I respect your disagreement.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I said he was uncouth, and those claiming his rights in the name of 'freedom of expression' are also uncouth. Yes, ordinary people put up with a lot, but one day sections of them will retaliate, and then it will get ugly.
      OK, MFH is elitist. So you wish to excuse his excesses. If a person drew the same thing in a vernacular newspaper then would you condemn it ?? Why the differance in treatment.
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      I agree it's your right to call him uncouth. In the same way, he has a right to draw/express whatever he likes unless or until it violates a co-human's personal space. I not excusing his excess, I would not rather call it as excess. Putting in newspaper is a different thing, it's broadcasting your opinion which may/may not be liked/or taken lightly by many. A matured society will ignore it, however this country is not matured enough to handle it. It will ignite destroying the common man. It's again not the Elite who gonna suffer by this retaliation, it's again another common man.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      " he has a right to draw/express whatever he likes unless or until it violates a co-human's personal space." . In India religion is an essential part of personal space.
      I rest my case.
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      Hahahahahahahahaha... I respect that. Let's agree to disagree.
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    • Balasubramaniam Muthusamy
      Aparna Krishnan
       karva chauth can be mocked at - what is the issue? many rituals do not stand the test of time - they need to be pushed out by such social commentaries - if we had not done in the past, even sati would have been a revered ritual today.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Discussed, debated yes. Questioned strongly yes. Mocked, no. Personally, I see nothing wrong in a wife fasting for her husband for a day. But debates are always in order.
      I alwayswonder why consumerism, the worst of all ills is not every questioned by the ladies and gentlemen who take on these personal practices of other indian women.
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      Define Mockery....
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  • Lalitha Rangachari
    Aparna I agree with you . Mocking at people for their beliefs and calling it freedom of expression is plain silly
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      You guys even don't know what's there in the movie. Where mocking comes in the first place?
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  • Ramprasad Rohini Tanaya Dasa
    Narratives and each one is going to be strongly supporting his/her however distorted, fictional, truthful, reality, or false it maybe. This has been from time in memorial the narratives were made to acceptable either through debate, force, or by coercion. The narrative of a simple village Rajput should be heard in the same attention and importance as the so-called narrative by so-called intellectuals. For simple villagers there is no such separation as creativity and life, their lives are intertwined with their creativity and separating them and the pride from it should also be considered. Just because elitist so-called intellectuals are able to use their might of elitism and money power, the poor marginalized villager with opposite narrative cannot be termed foolish or stupid.
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  • Ramprasad Rohini Tanaya Dasa
    Aparna Krishnan
     amma, let me be corrected if I am wrong.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    And my friend, rooted in the ground, in the villages, told me Padmavati is a living reality for all the Rajputs. Only imbecile deracinated uncouth intellectuals will support the 'right' and 'freedom' to denigrate her.
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    • Chitra Sharan
      With what I read, the people who revere Padmavathi, haven't protected the palace and in fact have vandalised the mirror room.
      I am not debating the movie here. Since it's not released and I haven't seen it.
      It's these double standards that I find difficult to comprehend. Respect for Padmavathy is expected from others but will reserve the right to ruin her abode.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      'My god, my culture, my right'. Unless its some fundamental wrong, Im fine with that.
      We have enough mess we cause in our lives through our ways of living - why not concentrate on that, and leave other peoples gods and temples and worship to them.
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    • Chitra Sharan
      I can't go on this tangent... 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      We are nobodys keepers. To say how they should keep their temples. And to decide how deeply they revere their gods. And intellectual freedom has many avenues apart from caricaturing other peoples gods.
      There is no tangent. Before we take on policing others lets clean up our backyard.
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