Wednesday 17 February 2021

Discussions on Caste with Raghunandan

 


I have not met
Aparna Krishnan
, but she is a good friend of mine. For nearly two years, I have been following her posts. She has forsaken a comfortable life in a city, eschewed the benefits of a valuable education, to stay in a village amongst the poorest of the poor. Her accounts of life in a village are fascinating, uplifting, sometimes happy and sometimes depressing. While I read her points of view, like with most good friends, I am not in complete agreement with her once in a while. Here is one of our recent conversations, that we are still carrying on.
Aparna wrote:
Just wrote to a friend
"They all give me a wide berth. After I said villages are based in religiousness, the leftists unfriended me !! And after I said that caste is the essential framework of Indian society the Dalit-activists unfriended me !! After i said that Yerpachchamma, and Jesus and Balaji are all revewred, the rightists unfriended me !!"
The village exists beyond left, dalit and right boundries, in a space uniquely its own.
I responded:
I'm afraid I have to disagree, quite strongly, that caste is an 'essential framework' of Indian society. It is certainly not essential. It is what has been holding back India from social progress. The argument that caste is some form of loose division of labour, even if it might hold a grain of truth in the distant past, is essentially a sugar coating of what has been a brutal and racist system of putting people in their place on the basis of their accidents of birth. I won't unfriend you, but I disagree with your view here.
Aparna replied:
Raghu, I would look at caste and the dalit narrative differently. If the only way to address the dalit issue was by uprooting the very civilization I would. But I suspect it is different. Caste (apart from the dalit issue) is about communities, The potters are kumaravaalu, the bamboo artisans are medari vaalu. Each community has its own rituals and practices and habits and also repository of skills. Under an overarching 'Hinduism' there is vast space buitin of diversity. Of course there is hierarchy, but show me one community where there is no hierarchy ! If not in the caste structure, then in a class structure, or on basis of language. Which needs to be eternally question and struggled against.
I wrote back:
I am afraid, I disagree, for several reasons.
First, the dalit narrative and the caste narrative cannot be separated into two different things, as a pernicious and unjust thing for Dalits, and as an acceptable division of labour for the other communities. The discrimination against Dalits narrative lives within the overall caste based discrimination narrative, it is a heightened form of discrimination. We tend to forget that caste based discrimination was very harsh even for the backward communities not so far back and it continues to be so, albeit as an undercurrent. I can say that such discrimination runs deep; I have seen such discrimination and prejudice working even in the highest echelons of the civil service, against the backward communities. In fact, even as I speak, I am witness to a possibility of a senior IAS officer of high integrity being superseded for the posting of a Chief Secretary, simply because he belongs to a backward caste.
Second, As I said, to sanitise and justify the caste issue for non-Dalits into a system of division of labour, is a gross simplification and it ignores generations of denial of access to education, submission to untouchability and other indignities suffered by the non-dalit backward castes as well. In such circumstances, I think that to say that each caste has a functional space that is 'uniquely its own', is a romantic notion, far from the truth of real life.
Third, to argue that hierarchies are justified or excusable because there are no systems without hierarchies, is not tenable. I am against all hierarchies, including those built upon class, language and regional differences.
Fourth, I think that Hinduism is built on the foundation of discrimination. It believes in reincarnation and the concept of Karma, to accept indignities and suffering in one life as retribution and punishment for since allegedly committed in a previous one. To say that everybody has their place, is to deny the flowering of talent.
In conclusion, I say this after a great deal of thought and I say this to you because you are an individual who thinks deeply. For a moment, I would like you to contemplate what I am saying, from the perspective of a third party. I know it is difficult, but please try.
Aparna, from what I gather, you yourself belong to a so called upper caste. As an individual, you have immense reserves of compassion and empathy, which shows in your attitude, your lifestyle choices and your thoughts and concerns for your community in which you live. But at the end of the day, there is an environment from which you came from, in which you did not suffer the kind of discrimination that others have suffered. You will never experience that. Therefore, it becomes easier for you to rationalise caste as a kind of benign system of order.
By the way, I have said this to many of my good friends who come from the so-called upper castes and I find that they too take time to accept what I am saying. When I reflect upon this reluctance, I have come to realise that this is due to human nature. it is easy for all of us to feel oppressed, but difficult for us to accept that we - not as individuals but as a group - have been oppressors as well. We try, consciously or unconsciously, or through cognitive filtering of our experiences, to sanitise or smoothen out experiences of others of having been discriminated against. For example, in my case, the hardest thing to accept has been when a woman has told me bluntly that I cannot understand what it means to suffer discrimination as a woman, because I am not a woman. And no amount of empathy on my part will change that.
Same with caste.
By the way, I am reading 'The Annihilation of Caste', by B.R. Ambedkar. You must read it when you get the chance.
P.S. I do enjoy these conversations, by the way! 🙂
Aparna replied:
I totally agree with your suggestion that as an 'upper caste' i will not understand the realities that a dalit faces. That I think is the essence of the Gandhi and Amdedkar positional differences. About the other points, I will have to take some time to absorb and respond. And I have also enjoyed and learnt immensely from your discussions - and I need not add how much the village itself has gained from your proactive moves.
I reflected:
In this context, I recall an observation made by Justice Sotomayor of the US Supreme Court. She is Hispanic and comes from a poverty stricken family. She is a strong votary of Affirmative Action and has drawn from her personal experiences, where she gained from such support, which eventually led to her becoming a Justice in the Supreme Court. Once, she mentioned that her judgments would be different from others in the Court because she was a woman, a Hispanic and poor. That raised a lot of hackles, because many others felt, genuinely from their point of view, that interpretation of the law is mathematical - that it does not depend upon the background or culture of the interpreter. But Justice Sotomayor stood her ground. It is a thought provoking point of view. Very very difficult to say what is right and what is wrong.
Similarly, even when I disagree with you, I'm not sure whether I am right. In fact, I do not know what is right or wrong.
But I feel strongly that the nation should move on. By raking up the past beyond a point we won't move on. That is my worry. That is what I see today in India. Too much of raking up of the past. Even I am guilty of it, occasionally.
Aparna concluded:
Reality is very nuanced. Even I have reached a point where I, in a debate, allow that a certian truth rests with the opposing point of view, and a certian truth only, i tentatively claim. And yes, we need to proceed in the here and now.
There are two points here. First, the content of the debate. Second, the tone and tenor of the debate. For both, thank you, Aparna. It is a pleasure to be your friend.
You, Chitra Sharan, Prakash Thangavel and 71 others
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  • Sriram Naganathan
    Aparna is a wonderful person. I disagree with her on not some, but many, counts and have had arguments. I think her 'sample to population' method of drawing inferences about Indian villages based on her experience in that village is totally wrong and is actually puzzling. Having said that, what she has been doing in her chosen village is remarkable. She should perhaps document her work like William Hinton did in 'Fanshen'.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Yes, we have many differences 🙂, and I am waiting for you to make the promised visit to my village with Apoorva and Hamsa! We will resolve difference on the field !!
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    • Sriram Naganathan
      I know.. long overdue. Once Apoorva's so called 'board' exams get over, visit will be on top of the agenda. Btw, I won't have any differences of opinion when visiting your village. What you do there seems indisputable. So my visit will be only to pay respects to all the great souls whose names I have got to know from you and to know your work in some more detail. Maybe we could explore if there is anything that Hamsa and I could do for them - she is a special educator dealing with marginalized children.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      plese do. there is crying need everywhere on every front.
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  • Bhavana Nissima
    This is dialogue! Thanks for sharing!
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  • Sriram Naganathan
    And as Bhavana said, thanks for this wonderful dialogue. Sobering.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Raghu, it is extremely kind of you, but I am afraid rather undeserved. I have learnt a lot over two decades living with some of the finest people in this land in Paalaguttapalle. It is only their perspectives that I try to represent, and it is them that I owe what understandings I have of my country, and of the possibilities and strengths herein. These people who have made me and my understandings include Eashwaramma, Annasamy Anna, Varalu and others, and also 
    Uma Shankari
     and Naren who were the people who drew me to this village that long ago time in 1995.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Would value your observation given your many experiences and perspectives. Caste as a framework is a reality, and will not be wished away in my understanding. To draw on the strengths and to address the problems, is imo the need today. 
    Narayana Sarma
    , 
    Uma Shankari
    , 
    Rahul Banerjee
    , 
    Sunny Narang
    , 
    Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula
    , 
    Kannan Thandapani
    , 
    Rama Subramanian
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  • Nilim Dutta
    It is easy for those like Aparna Krishnan to peddle such nonsense as "caste is the essential framework of Indian society" because I would suspect she has never been forced into manual scavenging or her child, put into an university after unimaginable toil, had not committed suicide becuase of harassment and discriminations they faced because of being Dalits. Only those who have never faced brutal atrocities because of the privilege of their births have the luxury of peddling such vile notions as almost romantic. I cannot be any less brutal because I am still without words for the heartrending sobs of the Dalit mothers I have met in the past couple of weeks.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Nilim, I have said many times over that the Dalit reality is the blackest shame before which we all hang our heads. If the way to address that was to throw every Veda and Gita into the ocean I would. But I think the reality is nuanced and local and multi faceted. Unless we see many different narattives and perspectives and realities we will be distanced and our interventions will stay untrue. To reach at that shared understanding, and to build our collective responses is the need. And incidentally I do not need to be educated over the privations of dalits - I have broken my heart over the children of my village many many times for 20 years to date. And still do. Yes, my not being a dalit, and not living their life handicaps understanding - but that is all.
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    • Nilim Dutta
      Aparna Krishnan
       the undeniable reality is that *caste* reinforces its brutal reality daily, in forcing many into manual scavenging, in rather routine stripping/parading/rape of dalit women, in killing them without the slightest provocation. No responses can be built by glorifying and romanticizing caste. Rather, you are justifying it insidiously. I also do not care about how you have broken your heart over the plight of the Dalit children in your village. If it was worth, something would have changed in 20 years. From what you have written above, it is apparent nothing much has. Mere angst is irrelevant. Anything that stands against such human oppression and misery has to be annihilated. No, I am not a violent atheist. I have absolutely no issues with people practicing their faiths as long as those practices are not hostile to human dignity. Your lived experience in just one village out of lakhs of villages cannot negate the brutal lived reality of lakhs.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I am too small and irrelevent in the scheme of things. As also my heart, and so we will not discuss it. As also my pointless angst or otherwise. Also I am also not interested in pro-caste and anti-caste arguments here. I simply feel that the communities of caste will not be wished away and we can deal with it realistically. Over time it may weaken with intercaste marriages at least in the upper classes.
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    • Nilim Dutta
      No one is 'wishing' it away. Rather, I am confronting it, as it should be. It will not weaken if we start believing 'caste is the essential framework of Indian society'? Whose society? Whose definition is that? Why do those who are left oppressed by it have to agree to your conclusion? THAT is my point.
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  • Manoj Pande
    thanks for sharing this dialogue .... and I fully agree with you on it ... 'The Annihilation of Caste', by B.R. Ambedkar. ..is a must read for all social activists in the present context ....
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  • Sailesh Bhupalam
    There was an essay a while ago, titled "can the subaltern speak?" by gayatri chakravorty spivak . She said the colonizers can only know but a fraction of what the colonized experience. This sparked a new social science discipline in itself, if i am not wrong, it is called subaltern studies. in your conversation, you have stuck the same chord that she did.
    And when you said " even when I disagree with you, I'm not sure whether I am right. In fact, I do not know what is right or wrong" , It reminded me of Rene Descartes "Cogito, ergo sum", which he actually wrote as Dubito ergo cogito ergo sum (I doubt, therefore i think, therefor i am.)
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Ravi Badri, this may interest you.
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  • Mohan Adhyam
    Enlightening conversations, not just for the content, but also for the so-civil engagement. There is much to learn from this - about how to discuss issues and ideas.
    As we move away in time from events and personalities, it is almost as if veil after veil is removed from our eyes. Opinions and positions will change, influenced as much by our experiences as by the social milieu around us. A change of opinion, or its persistence, should not become the reason for cessation of dialogue.
    Speaking for myself I have found myself thinking loftily about change at times, while at others surrender to the “real world” seems the easy way out, even the only way. Some deep spark lights up the gloom, and the desire to “do something about it” returns…
    Tempting though it is, I eschew metaphysical explanations – though resorting to them seems to comfort most minds!
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  • David D'Costa
    Have saved this thread --for use with friends of mine who do not understand what it is to be from a Backward Caste in India--even today.
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  • Rahul Banerjee
    Well caste is an anachronism as are the categories of religion, race and nation - these are all imagined communities that have been reified over time to the detriment of the human race and the environment with large parts of both being devastated as a result of the cupidity of those who are powerful in the hierarchies created. We have to learn to see ourselves as insignificant cogs of nature and act with the humility that that will instil in us to build more democratic communities.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I differ, but I could be wrong also. My understanding as of now is that there are personal truths and societal truths. Personal truths could be structureless and pathless as you mention, and as JK typifies. Societal truths are always structured, whether anachronistic or not. A society is atheist or theist and our responses need to be framed in that reality. Similarly every society is hierarchical - and if I wish away caste, I can see the new hierarchy based on levels of modern-education, and english-fluency already well in place. To understand the structure of a society, to grasp that which is of value, and to fight against all that is perverted is i think what is needed. And that fight itself needs to be structured in an understanding of the society, and for India I think Gandhi did it best. And not least because he respected the common villager deeply enough to learn and understand him. Many theories have placed the common person as part of an uneducated mass needing to be led. That I feel will never help for a true understanding and a response. Of course in the Dalit narrative the Gandhi-Ambedkar dichotomy is a real issue - and one which has sadly stayed only polarized, because in that synthesis there may be some directions.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Raghunandan
    , I was thinking that beyond a level the debates on castes become theoritical. The Naidus in my village for now at least are going to stay Naidus. Theu will stay with their traditions and their temples and will also not, except as exceptions, marry a Reddy. The Kumaravaalu will continue to worship the Satyamma which is their personal goddess, and which shrine only they have the privilege to worship in. When rains fail, they offer their offerings there on behalf of the entire community. The Mangalvaalu or barber community will claim their right to playing the nadaswaram at the temple thro' the sankranthi month, and their right to the sheep on the 4th day of the festivities. None of all this will go away even if Naren married out of caste, or Nagesh did. We are a fringe. So the pro- and anti- debates are simply that. The crying question is how to address the situation of the SC youth. Land reforms, proactive reservations, and everything and anything else that the imagination can possibly create. They are destroyed ubder multiple pressures today. A destroyed resource base in village after village whereby traditional occupations are dying. A pathetic schooling that only alienates them from their roos, and gives them no opening. A wider world which subtly and not so subly despises their caste. They have all turned to drink. Each one in my village. And I can only grieve, as i know them all as fine children I have known from childhood, destroyed by a pointless system. 
    Sridhar Lakshmanan
     had suggested sports as an intervention which could restore youth spirit. Vibrant livlihood options also have to be created in village. With every possible intermediate technology. Somehow it seems to be a failure of our imagination and dreams. 
    Sridhar
    , how is the situation, and the interventions in the tribal villages shaping up ?
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    I tend to agree. (via Naren's book - Dilemas in agriculture)
    But one thing has become clear to us, through our stay in the village that while untouchability can be put to an end, caste will not go away. Caste is a reality of Indian society. It is the predominant social identity in villages. It gives a sense of security – with
    relatives, kith and kin, in times of need, for employment, sickness, death, marriage, etc. reinforced each time the community gathers for such occasions and functions. People may adjust to inter-caste marriages (except in case of marriages with SCs and Muslims),
    with the caste identity of the male predominating. It is now clear to me why caste has survived for over five thousand years and why it still continues to do so. Within the over all hierarchy each community has freedom of action to practice its beliefs and customs; and depending upon its control over resources and numbers, it comes to terms with the other communities regarding social status etc. Caste will not go. It cannot be wished away. It is an identity – a positive identity.
    The negative connotation comes with the SCs in their interaction with the other castes – trying to hide their caste for fear of
    distancing and insult. But now with the resurgence of the Madiga (leather worker) community proudly announcing their caste
    honorific with their names, things have started moving.
    Unfortunately for the Dalit movement it is no longer the ominous threat it appeared to be with the rise of the Dalit Mahasabha and
    organization of NGOs at the grass roots in Dalitwadas. A resurgence that appeared possible once again with the rise of Kanshi Ram in U.P. is now a lost dream. The mobilization of Madigas as a separate community wronged at the hands of Malas who are supposed to have cornered most of the benefits in the name of reservations (partly true) and the competing calls of the political parties have badly splintered the Dalits into several groups and the community lies dissipated feeling betrayed by its leadership. The practice of untouchability sustaining down the years into the 21st century, is basically due to its function of reinforcement of relations of dominance and dependence. Unless these relationships are shaken to make people of different castes
    (who are mutually dependent) interact on a more equitable footing and make them reasonably independent of each other in economic terms, untouchability will not go.
    Therefore economic reforms are a necessary condition of Dalit liberation but are not sufficient. By themselves economic reforms cannot change the relationships of the traditional caste culture. They have to go hand in hand with social reform campaigns for removal of untouchability – both by Dalit assertion campaigns a la
    Ambekdar and by caste Hindus campaigning among the farmers of other castes – a la Gandhi. Both are complementary. Both are needed however much the Ambedkarites might revile Gandhi and vice versa. In fact Ambedkar’s conversion to Buddhism (and not Islam or Christianity) heralds the possible confluence of
    these two streams of struggle towards a new flowering, submerging untouchability in the annals of history.
    Today, there are no major social campaigns against untouchability at the village level nor is there any movement of significance demanding redistribution of economic resources, especially land, to Dalits. The National campaign for Dalit Human Rights has
    been fairly successful in making the voice of Dalits heard at the U.N. and the National level equating untouchability with apartheid. While its efforts at the international and national level are commendable it is sad to see the campaign at the local level against untouchability is hardly noticeable. It is a welcome sign that the Communist Party Marxist (CPM) of late has woken up (better late than never) to the evil practice of untouchability and has been launching campaigns against such practices for the last three years in the name of Kula Vivakshata Vyatireka Porata Committee i.e. struggle committee against caste discrimination. It may be noticed that the committee of the CPM is campaigning not for abolition of caste but only against caste discrimination, that is, they seem to have realized that the fight against caste and against caste discrimination are two different things. From the point of view of other castes, Sharad Joshi, a noted farmers’ leader, made an interesting observation. He said that when the farmer’s economic status is improving he will not bother much about the practices of untouchability and caste hierarchy. It is only when the position of farmersis not improving or on the contrary is declining, while certain sections/ families of Dalits are improving, through jobs, lands etc. with the consequent claimsto equality by the latter that the other caste people tend to be very particular about
    maintaining their status. For, after all, it is only the social status (by birth) that is still left with them, having been deprived of any economic improvement and getting deeper anddeeperinto debt. And all the anger and frustration of theirsituation gets concentrated into focusing on the maintenance of practices of untouchability and caste discrimination. This situation is particularly noticeable in the case of many backward communities who are only a little above the SCs in caste hierarchy such as the Wadders (stone cutters), Yadavs, Ekira Dora, Balijas etc, as also among the poor or middle farmer Kammas and Reddys. A similar situation prevails between the Vanniar and the SCs in Tamil Nadu. We thus have a funny situation, with the big land owners, and rich urbanites professing caste liberalism and against the practice or at least willing to stop practicing untouchability, while the peasant insists on maintenance of untouchability and associated practices which would in turn reinforce his status and dominance in all spheres.
    Interestingly, the removal of untouchability, although an important demand, is not at the top of the agenda of any of the Dalit political parties. They are more interested in forming caste alliances with other backward castesto oustthe upper and middle castes from power – Bahujan Samaj theory. Capturing political power through the ballot with their numbers seems to be their strategy and once in power they expect social and economic justice to flow. They do not spell out any specific economic agenda for Dalit liberation unlike the communists who emphasize the economic liberation of Dalits as primary enterprises.
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  • Priya Jay
    Disagreement in polite ways!! Thanks for sharing this.
    I aspire for such diplomatic sensible conversations Alone to exist .. on forums or TV channels or at normal household ..
    Afterall its the communication skill that lacks in most Indians that makes discussions unhealthy.
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  • Naveen Gupta
    Aparna Krishnan
     I think you belongs to andhra r8??
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  • Raghunandan Tr
    While I agree that caste is the predominant social identity in villages, I am sure it will wither away, for two reasons. Slowly but surely, in many states, the number of inter-caste marriages is increasing. Even if in such cases the child most often takes the caste of the father, there are, I suspect, many who are raising their children as casteless. Unfortunately, regressive judgments in judicial cases relating to reservations have ensured that the memory of caste will persist; there is a distinct bias in judicial interpretations against the idea of castelessness. The second reason why caste will wither away is urbanisation. True, even in urban areas, people do persist with caste as a social adhesive. But urban areas are also melting pots.
    On your points regarding Dalit liberation, I would like to reflect for some more time on the valuable points you have made, before I respond. I see a lot of sense in what you are saying.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      The openness that you bring into a discussion is indicative of a deep inner assurance. It is rare in these times.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I am reminded of the debates that gandhi had with tagore. the utmost courtsey married to the most fundamentally different positions that they held to. those were the times !
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    These were important learnings. Over the years, some beliefs got challenged and changed. Some got firmer. Im saving this conversation.


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