Tuesday 2 March 2021

Of Sanskrit, of IITs, of Ramayana, Of 'Brahminical' jibes. (Turiya Kathyayini)

 



Daughter, "If someone studies in IIT, goes to US, works in Silicon Valley, and then returns and starts learning Sanskrit, he will be admired.
If someone is clear and chooses to learn Sanskrit from the very beginning,he/ she will be valued less !"
It sounds dumb, but modern day society is dumb.
I was reminded of the articles felicitating 'IIT engineer returns to farm.". How does IIT, or engineering for that matter, in anyway matter when he/she starts farming !!

...

Let's take Ramayanam as an example. It is considered to be the Adhikavyam. Valmiki, the author, who is not a Brahmin but belonging to the hunter caste, is considered to be the Aadhikavi and is worshipped by every practicing Hindhu ( Vandhe Valmiki kokilam). The hero and the heroine of the epic are Kshatriyas. Hanuman, another hero, is a member of the monkey clan. Jatayu is a vulture.
The only Brahmana is Ravana, who is the villain in the epic. There are two more Brahmanas spoken about in the Ramayanam - Vashishta and Vishwamithra. I don't think they oppressed anybody.
Similarly Mahabharata is also not Braminical. Bhagavat Gita is a sermon given by a Kshatriya to another Kshatriya.
So why is the term 'Braminical' used, by taking it from the word Brahmin to imply oppression? In which epic of ours has a Brahmin ever oppressed others?
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  • Pratap Ramamurthy
    I think it also about "newsworthiness".
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    • 52w
  • Pratap Ramamurthy
    This is like "man bites dog" will appear in news more often than "dog bites man" because of newsworthiness. It may not mean the former happens more frequently or valued more.
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    • 52w
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    No. It's plain mindlessness. Snobbery. That youngsters are able to see through clearly.
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    • 52w
  • Meenakshi Negi
    Ha ha hit the nail though it does matter that Buddha was a prince who chose to become a mendicant.
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    • 52w
  • Kannan T
    I agree on the excessive limelight on the elite taking up farming. But when farming communities in villages are moving away from farming, showcasing our stories does have a limited objective of telling them that the grass is not greener on the other side and it is mindless for all to run after money. How successful it is in conveying that message is to be seen; sometimes I fear it is counterproductive...the privileged advising the poor not to go after material wealth is always dicey.
    Regarding language, I think this could be a problem specific to Sanskrit because Sanskrit is still perceived to be a Brahminical language.
    Many of the most respected names in Tamil literature today, and probably in other Indian languages too, do not have any elite backgrounds. I know respected writers who can't speak any English or don't have any fancy degrees and have learned exclusively through Tamil. They may not still be financially successful but they are admired in the literary circles based on the quality of their work/scholarship and not based on their achievements elsewhere.
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    • 52w
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Kannan T
       the general upper class (wrong) impression that IIT engineers (and their 'relatives') are from Mars is the issue. Related to farming or Sanskrit scholarship.
      Yes, Sanskrit scholarship is also deeply respected in knowledgeable circles. I am talking of the mindless circles !
      It has nothing to do with Sanskrit being Brahminical.
      As for the worth of our moving to villages, it is useful insofar as we learn of the great wisdom and knowledge in villages. It is about our education, about our unschooling, and opening our eyes. Mainly. Yes, with that perspective we can work with the people. Together.
      We are all nothing worth showcasing, we can help to show case villages, thats all.
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      • 52w
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    • Turiya Kathyayani
      Kannan T
       you are saying that samskritham is brahminical... What do you mean by that term? Please explain...
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      • 52w
    • Kannan T
      I am talking about the perception. Are you saying such a perception doesn't exist?
      I am using Brahmanical in a very direct popular sense. Of course, there are other senses in which the term is used...I am not getting there for this discussion.
      Brahmanical | Meaning of Brahmanical by Lexico
      LEXICO.COM
      Brahmanical | Meaning of Brahmanical by Lexico
      Brahmanical | Meaning of Brahmanical by Lexico
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      • 51w
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    • Turiya Kathyayani
      Kannan T
       what is the perception?
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      • 51w
    • Kannan T
      It is perceived to be the preserve of Brahmins. Therefore the larger section of people neglect it and some actively reject it. And therefore there are fewer people outside the circle of Brahmins and oriental Westerners who can appreciate your scholarship in Sanskrit. As against it, scholarship/literary merit in a Tamil or Malayalam or Kannada is appreciated by relatively many more people (not comparing with English) as they are classical languages of the masses. Sanskrit has real and perceived problems which are different from the challenges faced by other languages, which are related to the spread of English.
      We need to appreciate the difference in the nature of the problems, if you are to resolve the problem.
      Will end it here. I am not sure if I am being understood properly here.
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    • Turiya Kathyayani
      Let's take Ramayanam as an example. It is considered to be the Adhikavyam. Valmiki, the author, who is not a Brahmin but belonging to the hunter caste, is considered to be the Aadhikavi and is worshipped by every practicing Hindhu ( Vandhe Valmiki kokilam). The hero and the heroine of the epic are Kshatriyas. Hanuman, another hero, is a member of the monkey clan. Jatayu is a vulture.
      The only Brahmana is Ravana, who is the villain in the epic. There are two more Brahmanas spoken about in the Ramayanam - Vashishta and Vishwamithra. I don't think they oppressed anybody.
      Similarly Mahabharata is also not Braminical. Bhagavat Gita is a sermon given by a Kshatriya to another Kshatriya.
      So why is the term 'Braminical' used, by taking it from the word Brahmin to imply oppression? In which epic of ours has a Brahmin ever oppressed others?
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      • 51w
      • Paranthaman Sriramulu
        They dont know history or our epics. Brahmin lived on alms. They cooked their own food. They did not accumulate wealth or be in power. Brahmana varna jati being knowledge holders had follow this rule. Now. we see what happens when knowledge holders sell knowledge (patent, trademark, copyright). And when they are in power or accumulate wealth. Deadly combinations and result. They control world..
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Kannan T
       some things are whipped up by activists in their missionary zeal. Often hatred.
      Yes maybe brahmins preserved Sanskrit. Well, the tribals preserved tribal dialects.
      The mandate if a Brahmin was poverty and using his learnings for the wekfare if society. How many people aspired to that poverty ? We can take a reasonable guess.
      To make out that brahmins were oppressive, that the very work for oppressive hierarchy needs to be derived from the word Brahmin, I am afraid us a political game. Those who wish to play it may. Not my circus.
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      • 51w
  • Sivapriya Krishnan
    Yes. Absolutely.
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    • 52w
  • Paranthaman Sriramulu
    80% of names in south India are sanskrit based. Dravida parties tried to remove sanskrit words in TN.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Paranthaman Sriramulu the post is not about TN specifically. It is a silly pervasive and baseless snobbery. In the English Educated Indian.
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      • 52w
    • Paranthaman Sriramulu
      Aparna Krishnan
       I put a fact as some said sanskrit is brahminical language.
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Paranthaman Sriramulu yes, agree.
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      • 52w
  • Pratap Ramamurthy
    Bavathi sathyam vadathi. kaarana api sarve janaha jaananthi.
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    • 51w
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  • Aarti Madhusudan
    What does it matter what anyone else says or thinks 🙂?
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    • 51w
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Aarti Madhusudan
       it doesn't at a personal level. At a larger level it's important to understand the trends, and call them out when they are flawed. That is the purpose of the post as well.
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    • Aarti Madhusudan
      I agree but find that judgement of others rarely leads to proactive positive change . One comes across as self righteous and therefore puts the other at a defense- however each to their own 🙂
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      • 51w
    • Sunny Pawar
      Each to their own sounds good only as long as they hv the needed resources 🙂
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      • 51w
    • Aarti Madhusudan
      True. Although my point was more around why some of judge others and some don't and that as far I am concerned...that's ok 🙂
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Aarti Madhusudan
       a society is built up of many people and many perceptions. All that is wrong, or seems wrong, needs to be debated, and if required corrected. Personal integrity is ok for personal satisfaction. But larger collective processes need to be engaged with for meaningful change in thought, word, deed.
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    • Aarti Madhusudan
      Aparna Krishnan
       and we give ourselves the right to sit in judgment ,? Of course, its a free country and we can if we choose to 🙂 And even if we do, it does not alone seem to change behaviour that is sought for collective good. All great people inspired by examples and living a life that was at high standards - be it Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Vivekananda...almost never did they call out people who were different from them unless they were asked to venture a view. If each of us strives for personal integrity FIRST , we will automatically create a context for emulation. Signing off on this point 🙂
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      • 51w
    • Aparna Krishnan
      This post is a very important point that needs to be tabled faced discussed.
      It is not 'judgemental'.
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      • 51w
    • Aparna Krishnan
      And btw, the yamas and niyamas, rules of ethics, can also be termed judgemental, normative, value judgeing, moral policing.
      I am least interested in responding to these terms. 🙏




Met some old classmates. Their son has got into IIT. His parents, very happy.
Though I was happy that they were happy.
I wondered to myself, to what end.
Does an education in IIT teach one ones duties to the country, to the poor. Does it give a sense of ones infinite responsibility given ones infinite privilege ?
Without that, what use is any learning ? Mathematics or chemistry.
And anyway a college education that teaches one to seek to leave the land. As is the case for the majority there, is not the wholesome education. that I would seek for my child.
All this stayed unsaid.
To what end. The only question that matters.




What is this intelligence that is so celebrated. IITs ? IIMs ? Stanfords ? Caltechs ?
Do the students there learn
- to see and understand poverty, and to know themselves as the problem and as the possible solution
- to have the courage to work with and for the poor. To have the strength and compassion to accept the personal price it entails.
That is the only intelligence that counts. That is the only learning needed. That teaching can only be done by a teacher who walks that road.
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