Saturday, 3 April 2021

The Population Red Herring

 

As populations get increasingly urbanised and deracinated the population growth usually slows or reverses. Many of those who have no children or small families but comparatively lavish lifestyles would rather blame the person who has a child or two more than they do but a small fraction of their carbon footprint than to challenge and change themselves. 🙁 How many of us who can afford big mirrors use them to look carefully at who we are inside and then consider the impact of our choices on others? Mark Jhonson



  • Venkat Krishnan N
    shnd't this come with the inalienable DUTY to procreate only if one has a sustainable livelihood for oneself and the ones to be born?

  • Aparna Krishnan
    Whom are you referring to ?
    The poor who seek livlihoods, who only seek to work hard - but stay underfed ? My village people whose children are yes, malnourished ? They should not have children ?
    Or all of us in modern livlihoods ? Destroying the earth with our livlihoods which tear apart the stratosphere on one hand, and mine the innards of the earth on the other hand. And claim so much that there is little left for the others. We should not have children ?
    Who is to moralize to whom ?
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    1. The poor with ten children who all together claim so little from earth ?
    2. Or the rich with a single child which devours a 100 times what those 10 poor children claim ?
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  • Venkat Krishnan N
    ALL of us, Aparna. We, the well-to-do need to minimize our footprint (what we claim from the earth) and ensure that we give back more to the earth and to society than what we claim from them. Our consumerism is a big challenge. To adopt children who are already born and care for them, or to provide for children who are in other families, to the extent we can.
    Equally, though, even the poor shd be encouraged to consider whether they will be able to provide good care for children - healthcare, nutrition, the ability to sustain themselves, etc. Is it fair to give birth to children who may then have to die because we can't provide for their healthcare or provide enough food for them?
    My point is not at all about just the poor- it is a larger one about the need for all of us to focus on our DUTIES instead of our rights. And to see what we can do to help our world (the earth & the society) become better, rather than what is good for ourselves (rights).
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Para 1 - full agreement. Though i am going to stop using the sanitized word footprint, and call it stealing. Stealing that share of the earths resources which never belonged to me.
      Para 2 - after having denied the poor the space to get a toehold, because of my infinite greed, far be it from me to advise them to also not have children.
      Para 3 - Dharmam is a code of duties, moral, ethical duties. The poor quote it and live by it far far more than the rich. Feeding another poor stranger unthinkingly when their own next days meal is under question needs a courage i would find it hard to reach.
      My informing MY class of the right to livlihoods of the poor is asserting OUR collective duty in ensuring that. An inalienable duty we need to live by, ahead of our infinite needs and gree. It falls within Dharmam. If the rich were to speand their vast resources meaningfully, focussing on livlihoods, this post would never have needed posting.
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      Unfortunately this gets into an "us v/s them" argument. I simply put myself in everyone's shoes and ask myself "what is MY duty?".
      As a well to do person, the response is to minimize my "stealing", to need or consume less and to share more of whatever I have 'stolen' as generously as I am able to.
      But as a "potential parent", I say to myself "this earth is already burdened with too many people, so instead of being selfish and wanting one of my own, can I adopt one that has already been born?". And I ask myself, "what is my duty to the potential child- and do I have the ability & wherewithal to fulfill ALL those duties including providing a healthy, well nourished childhood- both physically and emotionally?".
      I chose personally to not have children because I don't believe I am capable of fulfiling the duty of a parent and because I believe it is a burden I don't want to add to the earth. IMHO, a LOT more of us, whether rich or poor, need to be reflecting on this.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      1. Dharmam is for oneself. Each to ponder and live by his.
      2. The poor are deeply violated. In that space they live by their dharmam. Feeding all they can. My neighbour, undernourished, assetless, illilerate, only caregiver to two orphanded grandchildren gives a 25kg sack of rice as annadaanam. Out of her coolie earnings.
      From her and her people I seek to learn Dharmam (poorly translatable as Duty in Sanskrit), not to advise them on it. They have children, usually 2, and they share with a generosity i seek to learn. I far poorer in Dharmam understandings and practice cannot tell than that it is Dharmam to not have children !
      3. Yes, sadly it IS 'us versus them' - I wish it wasnt but for that we need to return our ill gotten spoils.
      4. I think I will stop using the word duty, when i have a far richer word, Dharmam.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      " ... and to share more of whatever I have 'stolen' as generously as I am able to. "
      Thats the catch. We all fail in integrity and courage. To greater or lesser extent. Richness corrupts. And weakens the moral fibre is what I have concluded. I have never come close to the bar my neighbours in the village have defined for me by their actions. Landless, assetless, illiterate, malnourished, SC. But they glow.
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      "Dharmam is for oneself. Each to ponder and live by his"? Then the billionaire who steals not just in the sense you refer to, but even more directly and brazenly, is also entitled to his. And we shd then not question or say anything to anyone else.
      I agree that each of us isn't doing enough. But not to "we shd not say anything to the poor". I believe that, like us, many of them aren't doing enough either.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      " Then the billionaire who steals not just in the sense you refer to, but even more directly and brazenly, is also entitled to his."
      Sorry, Dharmam is defined clearly and unambiguously. When i say each to his own, I mean each has to face his heart and answer its deepest questions. And face the call of Dharma in the solitude of ones soul. My comment is certianly not in the modern liberal My Choice sense. !
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      Aparna Krishnan
       sure... so that would apply to the poor as well (face his heart and answer its deepest questions, and face the call of dharma in the solitude of one's soul)?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Yes, and they understand and live by it far deeper than we do.
      Also when we are the theives it does not behoove on us to discuss their standing by Dharmam !
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      "Often someone will ask : what is the meaning of dharma ? Does it mean to worship some deity / or to perform some meditation / or to give away in charity etc etc ?
      So here is a very beautiful and authoritative definition from Srimad Bhagavatam, which can be accepted universally by all, irrespective of their birth or creed.
      Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.11.8-12
      satyaḿ dayā tapaḥ śaucaḿ
      titikṣekṣā śamo damaḥ
      ahiḿsā brahmacaryaḿ ca
      tyāgaḥ svādhyāya ārjavam
      santoṣaḥ samadṛk-sevā
      grāmyehoparamaḥ śanaiḥ
      nṛṇāḿ viparyayehekṣā
      maunam ātma-vimarśanam
      annādyādeḥ saḿvibhāgo
      bhūtebhyaś ca yathārhataḥ
      teṣv ātma-devatā-buddhiḥ
      sutarāḿ nṛṣu pāṇḍava
      śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ cāsya
      smaraṇaḿ mahatāḿ gateḥ
      sevejyāvanatir dāsyaḿ
      sakhyam ātma-samarpaṇam
      nṛṇām ayaḿ paro dharmaḥ
      sarveṣāḿ samudāhṛtaḥ
      triḿśal-lakṣaṇavān rājan
      sarvātmā yena tuṣyati
      Truthfulness, compassion, austerity and cleanliness (purity of mind and body) ,
      tolerance, discrimination, composure and continence,
      nonviolence, celibacy, generosity and study of the scriptures,
      sincerity, contentment and to serve the saintly persons;
      gradually cutting with that what is unnecessary and to be of gravity in avoidance of empty talk,
      self-search,
      to share food and drink with all beings
      and to consider everyone first of all a part of God,
      oh Pândava;
      to listen and to sing and also to remember Him who is the shelter of all the great ones, to attend,
      to worship and to propitiate, to be a servant, to be a friend and to be of surrender [in bhâgavata dharma];
      to possess all the thirty "characteristics as described constitutes the supreme of dharma that pleases Him the Soul of All, oh King
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      My thesis is that SOME of us who are privileged (maybe very very very few, like Dalai Lama perhaps) do live by Dharmam.
      And SOME of the poor (maybe very very few) don't.
      Would you agree? Or do you feel that there is no rich/well off person who is not stealing, and that every poor person is standing by Dharmam?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      1. If we are privileged we have failed Dharmam. If my privilege means i am storing for my excesses and my tomorrows when there is hunger and malnourishment today. I know of no other yardstick.
      Sanyasis and Dalai Lamas own nothing, so they pass that test.
      2. There are failures among the poor also, of course. But overall, I have seen far greater integrity and courage there. And they base it in their own words on Dharmam and devudu. Giving when they are unsure of tomorrows meal. And terming that act Dharmam.
      3. My own guilt holds me back from placing requirements on the poor. But the swami at the Tellagundlapalle Ashram close to our village has no such limitations. He takes what the poorest wish to give with humility for annadaanam. And tells me that the God has given sun and rain to all, and all, according to their capacity need to give back.
      The panchamahayagnas of Hindu practice that holds for every gruhastha.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      "Or do you feel that there is no rich/well off person who is not stealing, and that every poor person is standing by Dharmam?"
      Well, in a limited sense, every rich person has claimed more than his share of earths resources. And every poor person, in that sense, is clean.
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      Thanks- do expound on the limited sense you are refering to. Is there/ should there be a correlation between what one puts in and what one receives? In a plebeian way, if 1 person works for 10 hours and another for 4 hours (both tilling the soil), shd they receive differently or shd they receive the same?
      IF they shd receive same, then I understand (but don't agree).
      IF differently, is it not possible that some rich people have claimed less than their share of resources and some poor have claimed more?
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      By the way, I am learning a lot from this conversation, so thank you 🙂!
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      My constructs are very simple. 63% of the children of this land are anaemic and malnourished. And we store. Some to eat in glass walled restaraunts, some because we are scared that we may fall ill tomorrow and not be able to pay the doctors bill. We th… 
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    • Dharmam is to give - at any cost
      PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
      Dharmam is to give - at any cost
      Dharmam is to give - at any cost
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    • Runam (Debts) - A paradigm for Ethics
      PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
      Runam (Debts) - A paradigm for Ethics
      Runam (Debts) - A paradigm for Ethics
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    • Dharmam from the stage of the womb.
      PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
      Dharmam from the stage of the womb.
      Dharmam from the stage of the womb.
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    • Lessons from eashwaramma
      PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
      Lessons from eashwaramma
      Lessons from eashwaramma
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      In a perverted culture this is reversed. He who earns many many times more than the poor is considered following dharma, and even a model for society. He who asks for food, bhiksha, is termed a begger and seen as just short of a criminal.
      http://paala… 
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      Dharmam is higher than money power
      PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
      Dharmam is higher than money power
      Dharmam is higher than money power
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      Thanks. Read all of them, and they are nice. Still have the same question, though-
      ----------------
      Do expound on the limited sense you are refering to. Is there/ should there be a correlation between what one puts in and what one receives? In a plebe… 
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I dont even look at it that way, so not sure.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      More of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      More of while there is one malnourished child (more than 60% are in this land), over our basic needs our answerability is to them. Alone.
      The code is Dharmam. The choice is to live by Dharmam, or to violate it. If it sounds too simplistic, that is the language abd praxis of the people of this land.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      "IF differently, is it not possible that some rich people have claimed less than their share of resources ... " ... then they would not be rich any more.
      What is 'their share' according to you ?
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      Early in my school days, when I read the communist manifesto, I resonated with a lot of what it said except for the use of the word "need" in "to each according to their need". There is a version which says "to each according to their contribution" or "to each according to their work", both of which I resonate with. The challenge with the use of the word "need" is that it exonerates the receiver from any responsibility (duty/dharmam). So for example, if a healthy individual chooses NOT to do any work and yet shd get food because it is their "need", where is the Dharmam in that? And if everyone's need has to be satisfied first before anyone can "claim" anything more than their need, then WHY would anyone work at all?
      "...while there is one malnourished child..."- yes, agree with this. However, what is basic need? One meal a week? For it has been shown that it is possible to sustain on that much- indeed, many of the poorest do. Would that mean that anyone having more than one meal a week is following Adharmam?
      What if one sees oneself as a tool (God's tool for you) to do good? What if investing in the tool (eating well, keeping the mind healthy, etc.) allows one to generate more resources to be applied for good? Is that Dharmam or Adharmam?
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    • Venkat Krishnan N
      "Their share"- any reasonably determined value for effort. One could start with the simplest model that if 10 people together contributed 40 hrs of effort and 1 other person contributed 40 hours of effort and together they produced 100 units of something, then those contributing 40 hours (10) together get 50 units and the 1 person gets 50 units. This model can be complicated by getting into what each person did with the remaining time, what were the "other consequences" of their spending so much time here, what other contributions they made, etc. Economics has SOME (nowhere near all) answers. A lot of us MISTAKENLY assume that economics only means free markets, but it doesn't. At the core of all economics is the concept of a "utility function" and as a society we can choose what utility function we want to maximise/minimise/optimise.
      IMHO there is a lot to learn from our scriptures, but there is also a lot to learn from Westen thought and a good blend of the two helps us learn and follow (to the extent one is able to and discern) the "right path".
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      1. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." - the second phraseis preceeded by the first.
      2. 3 meals a day, a galss of milk. And whatever else based on common sense,
      Also a level of parity is also a need. So if oversupplied kids are going to gorge on pizzas in glass walled hotels, and pizzas leer down the urban poor kid from hoardings, then that is also a created need, which has to be faced squarely ! So the correction has to happen on both ends. The rich reducing their consumption, and the poor raising theirs,
      3. Certianly we also should eat well. Whether we are tool of Gods will, or not. One meal of dal rice, and one meal of roti subzi is a very good deal for us also.
      4. Kumarappas Economics of Permenance suits me. But that needs ethics and morality as a base. And now if one talks of morality in moderm circles one gets strange looks ! I suppose Dharmam would procure one even stranger looks !
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      ...when Sankaracharya was doing bikshatana there was a rich man who was doing his dharma and the house was thronged by many help seekers, but he went to a humble house at the next door and took what ever little was offered. The man came running to shankara begging him to explain why he has not taken any aid, shankara replied saying how can I accept aid from a person who has stored so much when the village is in poverty.




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Again a discussion on population control. On how the third child should be discouraged.
Where is the discussion on consumption control ?
On how we should manage our expenses on our child. In a land where one rich child consumes 500 times what a poor child consumes.
How long will we the privileged rule the discourses ??
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