Friday, 21 May 2021

Ayurveda Discussions



i saw aother post laughing at 'the government that values cow urine'. Educated fools mushrooming everywhere !
Cow urine has medicinal properties. We use it in ayurveda. We use it in the village. It addresses tumours. It addresses leucoderma. And much else.
Many deracinated intellectuals of this land are rolling off their chairs in laughter on hearing this.
The day Stanford validates this in a paper they will all start clambering back onto the chairs they kicked away. And start writing about its glories.
Never saw a more servile community than the western educated indian. Utterly lacking in intellectual ability, or intellectual integrity or self confidence or pride.


Jagannath Chatterjee
Modern medicine is based on two stupendous falsehoods; the body is a machine and a chemical factory. How did this come about? Oil barron Rockefeller and Hitler supported Nazi chemic giant I G Farben took over. Obviously they wanted to sell petrochemical and chemical products. Thus the word "science" was hijacked to spread a superstition of immense proportions. As a result the entire population of the world is battling epidemics of serious chronic diseases, disabilities and cancers. And they talk about ayurveda! Bloody goons.



Gangadharan Kumar
Core principles of Ayurveda will eventually be remarketed as "personalized medicine". Then lot of of "intellectuals" will lap it up.

My point is that in the larger interest we need the detachment and maturity to look at each issue on its own strengths. Were the BJP to suggest it, it should not be shot down. The other point is that with many modern educated, learnings from Indian tradition is often deeply disdained. Maybe that comes from our have been colonized once. We would do well to keep that in mind. I think there are echoes of that in each modern educated person's mind.




There are some posts deriding some government conferance on cow urine.
Cow urine is medicinal. As in ayurveda, and also as per traditional practices in villages.
I have used it and also administered it. With good results.
My complaint is at the modern educated crowd which cannot understand the traditional inherited learnings of this land. Which has disdain, bordering on hate, for a wealth of inherited learnings. There is nothing worse than opiniated fools.
My complaint is at this incumbent government, which though riding on the wave of tradition and traditional learnings has done precious little except for some off tamashas and meetings. Which cocktail of half information only leaves us as a society more befuddled.
There are serious and genuine practitioners, well versed in the traditional sciences. In ayurveda as in other learnings. Who have kept the lamp burnimg. And we wait for that to take a vaster form. When the time is ripe. Modern medicine i anyway proving more problematic by the day.
All current discourse on food and its values is in terms of micronutrients, vitamins ... the western model.
Where we are told that this millet is good because it has more phosphorous, or that those greens are good because they have more copper.
Ayurveda understands foods by their effects on the doshas and dhatus. It is a different paradigm. And the most effective.
But the educated Indian cannot get his own heritage.
Another instance of mental colonisation. Which most of us do not even recognize ... the indoctrination starts in primary school.
Ramanan Jagannathan, Ayshwarya Vijayendran and 8 others
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How did Ayurveda become 'alternative medicine' in India ?

Some day after all religions are equal, God is one, etc. 🙂 Today in one of the class, some one asked "But scientists do not believe in soul", the teacher mentioned, "that is their problem to solve, not ours as we have our methods to prove". In the last many years, this was my main medicine.

Life expectancy increased due to medicine? Medical research says just the opposite. Diseases and disabilities have increased directly proportionate to the increase in numbers of doctors and hospitals. The largest study was done in 18 countries. It was titled, "The association won't go away!". Also it is known as per a study in the USA medical errors are the largest killer.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Yes, iatrogenic diseases - they even have a name for them !
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Dr Fudenburg - considered the father of immunology - turned the fiercest critic of medicine after he discovered the truth behind vaccines. He used to say - almost all diseases in the modern world are iatrogenic.
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     Oh come on. Fudenberg was never known as Father of anything. He was just the person who’s theory of relation between MMR vaccine and Autism was discredited. How did you skip Louis Pasteur and Edward Jenner for the post of Father of immunology?
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Ha ha ha...your knowledge is tremendous! Fudenburg discredited for the MMR vaccine! Ha ha ha...
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     Would you like me to tag an expert on this Mr.Lal 
    Lal Sadasivan
    . It seems he is already in your friend list.
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    I would also like to know the contribution of Jenner to modern immunology.
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     Jenner is often called "the father of immunology", and his work is said to have "saved more lives than the work of any other human".[4][5][6] In Jenner’s time, smallpox killed around 10 percent of the population, with the number as high as 20 percent in towns and cities where infection spread more easily.[6] In 1821 he was appointed physician extraordinary to King George IV, and was also made mayor of Berkeley and justice of the peace. A member of the Royal Society, in the field of zoology he was the first person to describe the brood parasitism of the cuckoo. In 2002, Jenner was named in the BBC's list of the 100 Greatest Britons.
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    It’s funny such a knowledgeable person as you didn’t know about Edward Jenner.
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Saved more lives! Do you have any idea about the number killed by the vaccine? And that the vaccine was given to only 10% of the population? And that small pox vanished from all regions where the vaccine was not given? And that the authorities had no clue as to what really was there in the vaccine?
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Today's immunology completely discredits Jenner. Humoral antibodies do not confer immunity. Immunity develops at several levels. It can only be stimulated with natural infection.
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     Don’t just make baseless statements. Edward Jenner’s research saved lives in 17th century and was a pioneer in the field. Further research in Immunology was the reason why we irradicated so many diseases thereby increasing life expectancy around the world. Statistics of our country is one of the biggest indicators. life expectancy in India was less than 40 in 1947 now it’s almost 68. And you’re telling vaccines killed people. The number of diseases didn’t increase because of modern medicine but rather we didn’t have the facility to diagnose cancer and other diseases lately. Just take an example of Leprosy/Malaria/Small pox. I have heard my grandmother speaking of people who died due to this diseases back then. How many deaths does these cause now. Same way how many Polio patients do you know among the millenials? You will all know some one in your generation who had Polio, but not even one among my acquaintances. It’s a statistical indicator. Accept the facts.
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Don't just comment. Go read. If you do you will understand that vaccine success is mere propagaganda. Type slideshare Jagannath Chatterjee and go through my PPT on Vaccination: Serious Concerns. You will understand.
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     Lol. Your ppt is the authoritative study about vaccination now? Mr.Chatterjee, ever heard of Wakefield’s research paper in “The Lancet”? It is considered as the biggest Medical hoax’s in the last century. Your kind are just followers of Wakefield’s Conspiracy theory.
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Go read. Understand the issue and the extreme politics behind it. I have studied vaccines for more than three decades. The mainstream view is a carefully constructed lie. Once you read and understand you will also speak against it. But first you have to carefully and sincerely understand the issue and it's many dimensions.
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     Mr.Chatterjee, Impact of vaccines far out weigh its demerits in all the studies ever conducted. There is already statistical empirical evidence to it. Many like Dr.Hegde who were staunch critics of Modern medicine finally took treatment when the deciding moments came in the shape of a stroke. I presume you or your family had never taken a tablet or went to a hospital for treatment ever. There was a recent case of a Kerala actor who was a critic of modern medicine being admitted in a hospital following an increase in sugar levels. So all you critics amount to just that much.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Did you read the case studies I have posted ? Or are you simply talking without any serious application ?
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  • Jibin Joy Varghese
    Aparna Krishnan
     Also please note that one persons personal experience cannot out weigh a humongous amount of research data created through relentless efforts of millions of scientists and experts. If Ayurveda has all the answers please explain why we had such a huge infant mortality rate a few decades ago? Prejudice against modern medicine is not a good thing. It’s nice that Ayurveda works for so many ailments. But that doesn’t mean it has the answer to everything.


Ayurveda is our medical system.
Allopathy is the alternative system.
Samrat Roy Chowdhuri, Chegondi Chandrashekar and 46 others
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  • Sivakeerthi Siva
    100% Right madam
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  • Aniruddha N Goel
    Totally agree
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  • Manohar Kamath
    What kind of people call their inheritance as alternative? I recently had to refuse an invitation to an informal government dinner (senior IAS and IPS) as Kurtas Pyjama was not allowed.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Manohar Kamath
       the so called educated of this land, mainstream or activist, only despise roots. Brought up as they are on western theories and paradigms.
      They are the doom of this land.
      When power comes into the hands of the peoples of this land, that day we will reclaim our gods, our languages, our soul.
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  • Hariharan Sukumar
    This problem is more due to left, right and scientists. Left dont want anything Indian, Scientist don't want anything that doesn't conform modern-day science, and right have no intent to promote Ayurveda as it is not cash cow to Corporates..So unless we people push Ayurveda by going to ayurveda practitioners..we shall never redeem it..
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Hariharan Sukumar
       agree. Left and scientist we understand.
      That the Right is also a front for the corporates than for the traditions it gives lip service to is a tragedy !
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    • Hariharan Sukumar
      Aparna Krishnan
       Yeah, unfortunately, that's the fact!! except opening and already opened Ayurveda college..nothing has happened. No announcement on investments in R&D in Ayurveda or Siddha. If I were PM, I would have spent at least 5000 crores on it. Right is not interested in propagating traditional knowledge, they use traditions to garner vote.
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  • Amit Soumya
    But the right has always been with the rich
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  • Amit Soumya
    .. this was regarding your hope from the political establishment who are pedalling religion and indianness.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Amit Bhatnagar
       I had no such hope. They are are front for the corporates. At the same time given that they are using those cards, they could have done something for political gains. They didn't.
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  • Suman Bahuguna
    it's delusion.. worth comparing in detail.. and adopting best from all systems.. ayurveda hasn't digged into modern genetics.. yet modern medicine penetrated deepest forests in world in search of medicine
    hyperbole populism in original post is binding ayurveda to past conventions and harming than make it scientific, better and futuristic
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    • Hariharan Sukumar
      Suman Bahuguna Sir, afaic know Ayurveda cannot be brought under current scientific norm. The drug testing in the current science is to check effectiveness of the drug in all samples. Same Ayurveda medicine will have different results in different people depending on the Vatha, Pitha, and Kapha balance. We need a different way to measure the effectiveness of Ayurveda. Why it must conform to scientific norm?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      every system has its own norms, and can only be validated according to those.
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Aparna
       .. keep figuring how evil system will be validating with evil norms.. what kind of utterly irrational statement is yours
    • Suman Bahuguna
      Hariharan
       .. what a system, that hadn't developed such validation norms yet
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      rather than being opinionated it may be worth reading and analysing properly.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine .. also will look forward to research papers and studies where alternative medicines are preferred over modern scientifi… 
      See More
      Alternative medicine - Wikipedia
      EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
      Alternative medicine - Wikipedia
      Alternative medicine - Wikipedia
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    • Hariharan Sukumar
      Suman Bahuguna did i say there is no validation? I said..the validation used may not fall under scientific paradigm.
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Hariharan
       .. please provide details on alternative validation
    • Hariharan Sukumar
      Suman Bahuguna the validation is evidence based..you can refer to Charaka samhita.. translations..and may be books of Mukherjee..Aparna Krishnan knows more about this
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Hariharan Sukumar
       not possible, desirable nor required to provide a summary of methodologies in a FB comment for Shri Suman Bahuguna !
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    • FB Discussions - Ayurveda and Validation in Modern Medicine
      PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM
      FB Discussions - Ayurveda and Validation in Modern Medicine
      FB Discussions - Ayurveda and Validation in Modern Medicine
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    • Hariharan Sukumar
      Aparna Krishnan
       love the discussions
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Aparna
       thanx for sharing.. unfortunately it reminded of 7 blinds and elephant story.. except ananthakrishnan who correctly compared faith based to mullah, and I'll extend to crackpot medics.. aparna's statement on mantra medics is hilarious and extremely illetrate of what science is.. please note that I'm not suggesting ayurveda to be rubbish.. but suggesting it to be validated with science if it has to improve and survive for long.. else faith can't sustain it for long.. and to people here would suggest wikipedia article on alternative medicine or ayurveda or science etc as base start for discussion and not boast on fb discussion by amateurs as final words.. hope it help.. wishing happy and rational discussions to all.. cheers
    • Suman Bahuguna
      Hariharan
       .. it would help if you could please produce those references or their summary in brief here.. like i referred wikipedia article that not only ayurveda but also comments on chinese traditional medicine and finds placebo effect in these, provi… 
      See More
    • Hariharan Sukumar
      For that easy reference pls read what Aparna has sent
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    • Jagannath Chatterjee
      Suman Bahuguna allopathy has created all the modern day diseases. It is not a system of treatment. It was evolving from extremely crude suppressive methods the world would be shocked learning about today. That process was hijacked by petrochemical and chemical giants who wanted to sell their products and dominate the world. It is essentially a method that sells chemicals. Nobody can deny it. It is extremely unfortunate that this system was allowed to prosper despite full knowledge of its origins and intent.
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Hariharan
       i read that and provided my reply to it too, and still looking for better references from your side.. please read my reply, or suggest if you like me to repeat here.. many thanks
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Please do some learning of the texts if you wish a deeper understanding. It is not possible nor necessary for us to educate here thro FB comments. 🙏
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Aparna
       which texts please
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Suman Bahuguna Charaka Samhita
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Aparna
       .. i thought you've.. I'm pretty sure others may have done it.. including delving into other alternative medicine systems of chinese, roman, egyptian, mayan, arabian etc.. I'm happy to represent science and compete from that reference.. I've already sighted references like wiki article that you may like to contradict, or ask for further details.. i remember a report from u.s. gov agency not very long ago where billions of dollars were spent to find efficacy alternative systems to modern medicine but it concluded with triumph of modern scientific system
      the only problem i think is of ignorance of researchers, or happy being ignorant, or false ego in conventional systems
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Suman Bahuguna im done here 🙏
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    • Suman Bahuguna
      Aparna
       .. thanks for your patience.. research and exploring truth requires same in lots quantity.. am sure our contributions, in whatever amount, helps in finding that truth.. cheers.. 🕉️



Cow urine has medicinal properties. We use it in ayurveda. We have used it in the village.
Many deracinated intellectuals of this land are rolling off their chairs in laughter on hearing this.
The day Stanford validates this in a paper they will all start clambering back onto the chairs they kicked away. And start writing about its glories.
Never saw a more servile community than the western educated indian. Utterly lacking in intellectual ability, or intellectual integrity or self confidence or pride.
Samrat Roy Chowdhuri, Seshagiri BV and 71 others
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  • Manohar Kamath
    Western validation is what we seek... Look at the popularity of Yoga among the educated.
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  • Paranthaman Sriramulu
    It is used for many thousands years. Safe, natural and most effective. Chemicals screw environment, food chain and users. Self claim advanced people are happy with chemicals. Even animals activists
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  • ICAR backs use of cow urine in organic farming
    NEWINDIANEXPRESS.COM
    ICAR backs use of cow urine in organic farming
    ICAR backs use of cow urine in organic farming
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  • Suraj Kumar
    To be fair, I know a couple of deracinated big industrialists who are into "extracting medicinal properties" from desi cow urine. They run big businesses. They would not touch it. They employ people who will do that "dirty work". Oh, they are missing something (both in their product as well as in their life!)
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      That is simply deracinating the product and its properties. The 'active ingredient' concept belongs to the reductionist modern framework. They do that to everything. I think cow urine distillate is marketed for the fastidious !
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  • Ramanan Jagannathan
    We use it in our farm as anti insect spray and mix with manure
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    I am a deracinated (whatever that means) individual. I look for evidence. The village where I worked, the dhai used to cut umbilical cord with dirty hands.I taught her simple hand hygiene and gave her sterile blades from my PHC. Yes .I am a deracinated(whatever it means) individual
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Deracination is a deep prejudice against all that emerges from the soil of the land. Ayurveda, Jallikattu, village lore.
    Deracination is a loss of faith in the land.
    To have roots has never meant to not see and correct all the wrongs. It is to have the understanding that there are deep strengths along with wrongs that will creep into every system. It Is to seek to validate all that is good, and question all that needs to be questioned, with ones own roots firm.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Deracination is the horror from many 'educated Indians' when the TN government prescribes a time tested Siddha medicine during the dengue epidemic.
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    • Jagannath Chatterjee
      That was not exactly deracination. It was insecurity. They cannot tolerate the fact that holistic systems are the real systems and that they are slowly but steadily taking over.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      I opposed.You are against all test but now you say "time tested"? When and where was it tested? What was the result? How many survived and his many died? How is it superior to another native concoction Payaya leave juice?
      I have seen children dying before my eyes. The parents brought these children after giving Nilavembu etc. 11 month old child , Nilavembu for 3 days , fights a ventilator for 7 days and then succumbs......
      And now...... your favourite" deracination " (whatever it means)
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Ayurveda is being practiced very succesfully and quietly in many places. We have personally spent many years with one of the finest doctors. Nilavembu has stood us and our village in good stead thro' most fevers. Anecdotal, but our family has not used an allopathic medicine for all fevers inclufing typhoid. For over two decades. Villages are still substantially serviced by indian systems of treatment. All this is happenning despite a heavy policy level slant away from it. And the practitioners cannot divert themselves to building up statistical studies for disbelievers. the disbelievers may create their own studies. People at large are rooted, and are happy to follow ayurveda and siddha., and thats what matters.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      You are perfectly at liberty to follow whatever you like; and I will attend on every complication at whatever stage they come.And I have seen so many new born with umbilical sepsis because for 2000 damn years none told the dhais to wash their hands properly before conducting delivery. I have seen the severest form of untouchability and stupid superstition all in the form if tradition. There was this lady with leucoderma almost treated as an untouchable in the village I worked.Again godamn tradition. None of those wise traditional doctirs in that village had the sense to tell the villagers that it is not contagious. I had this lady cook food for me for about a year .Sge was in tears when I left that village.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Hate everything local and traditional = Deracination.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Validate and strengthen that which is wise, question that which needs to be questioned, while rooted in respect = Rootedness.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I suggest you live in a village before concluding that they are lnarroe minded and superstitious'. Visisting a village' will only reinforce prejudices. Immersing is needed.
      Anyway its fine, i have no interest in converting anyone.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Hate untouchability, hate blind superstition, hate male supremacy in every village, hate uppercase domination in every village,Yes.I am that deracinated individual. For me village is not a heaven. It is a heaven for settlers like you ,not for a dalit born in that village.Even in my own village there was a two tumbler system.Which was utterly humiliating. For you they don't exist or they are to be glorified. For me they are feudal remnants to be fought tooth and nail
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Your wish. I live in an SC village. Have for 20 years to date. Maybe my understandings are deeper - unless you wish to conviniently brush them aside as 'coloured' !!
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      I lived in a village ; defecated in the fields ,washed myself in a small rivulet and lived among people. I have SOME knowledge of how a village operates
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Not every village is same.This is so elementary. The villages in North Arcot are so different from the villages of Thirunelveli.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      We are close to N Arcot
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      I lived in North Arcot(undivided) Dharmapuri border
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    • Prakash Thangavel
      Does this mean class system does not exist in cities? Glassed restaurants, high walled gated communities, separate stairs, elevator for maids? And use same SC to clean sewers? City is no heaven either, just that money glosses over the caste divide and feudalism is replaced by class system. just look how north chennai is portrayed in the movies and compared repeatedly with affluent south chennai
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Prakash Thangavel
       whoever said class system does not exist in cities?
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      And 
      Prakash Thangavel
       I was born and brought up in a slum of Chennai and I know how class operates in cities first hand
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    • Prakash Thangavel
      So just like we apply rational thinking to traditional stuff, do we think the same way about modern stuff like GM food? Why do we think it is good just because American business tells us it is good for us? And we have been eating illegally imported gm food for years now.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      I never said GM food is good.I don't have sufficient knowledge about that.But I know that the Insulin we use in everyday practice for millions of patients is by gnentic modification process
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  • Mamatha Balasubramanian
    Is it the individual’s fault for being “deracinated”? People didn’t become deracinated overnight, it took many generations to do so and many of our social systems promote it, intentionally or unintentionally.
    In your example, raising awareness about the medicinal properties of cow urine will likely have a better impact than ridiculing or being judgmental about those who are unaware.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Deracination is the deadliest thing we are facing today. A community alienated from the strengths of the land, having clear disdain for the rural, is at the helm of affairs.
    Unless we brutally face it, this country is doomed. It took me many slaps to face my own loss of roots, and then to seek it.
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    • Mamatha Balasubramanian
      IMHO, self-righteousness is far deadlier. Each group saying my way is better than yours is a huge problem. Unless the others are approached with empathy and an intent for understanding, whether it’s “those backward villagers” or “the deracinated urbanites”, the divide is going to remain. But who am I to say what works? May be the metaphorical slaps do work for some.
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  • Rajeev R. Singh
    Deracination is using fancy words of English like deracination itself, when simpler words exist to explain the same thing..
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      hahaha true. Just that I have found this word perfect.
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  • Suresh Boyapati
    If anyone wants, proofs ... here are they , US and China granted patents for gomuthra ..
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  • Suresh Boyapati
    • US patent No 6410059- for Antibiotic Anti Fungal, Bio enhancer effect of Gomutra
    • US Patent No. 6896907 - For Anti Allergic, Anti infective, Nutrient & Anti-cancer
    • US Patent No. 7718360- For Anti Oxidant, Apoptosis … 
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  • Regi Lalitha
    I agree with 
    Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    . Blindly believing in tradition is akin to blindly believing in religion or the clergy. We have to use some rational thought. As a doc working in rural areas fir more than 30 years, i have seen enough life threatening complications arising out of "tradition". We dont have to romanticise rural life just because we live it
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Where in the post or thread has one advocated 'blind belief' in anything ? One is speaking or roots, of essenial respect, of validating the strengths and questioning the wrongs. And of the needs for proponants of modern science to understand that there is a lot they dont.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      When have you ever questioned the wrong? Untouchability? Two tumbler system?Separate burial grounds? Immorality (In my village the commonest disease was not anemia; it was gonorrrhea got by men from lambady tribes and passed on to their wives.
      Thousands of people worked in villages ;many have died fighting for people's rights there. They all know that villages had a very strong feudal system that favoured the upperclassmen at the expense of dalits and tribes.VIllages are NOT a homogenous entity. This is the experience of "deracinated" people like me.
      BTW in our younger days whenever we didn't like someone we would call them "petty bourgeoisie". Seems the term has changed to deracination
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Please go thro' my blog for various aspects that I have documented. Thanks.
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  • Prabha Krishnan
    Suresh Boyapati are all the patents you have listed for gomutra derivatives? Fascinating. Especially the reference to apoptosis. This naturally acting process is the best way of treating cancer. Thanks for the list.
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  • Prabha Krishnan
    Sorry that should be naturally occurring process.
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    Suresh Boyapati
     which means nothing in terms of medicine in actual life
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  • Suresh Boyapati
    Did not get .. .at least I have benefitted much by consuming it!!
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    That is anacdotal.You could have benefitted without that too.For eg I don't take any antibiotics for many fevers.I know most of them are viral and they go away after sometime.
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    • Suresh Boyapati
      🙂 I said I have benefited. I stay in cold place where everyone takes flu shots, I just took gomuthra, did not get cold for more than a year !! No need to say some one's real observation as anacdotal
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Real experiences are called anecdotal. That is the correct term.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Suresh Boyapati That a villageful of children who used to fall ill weekly have simply stopped falling ill after milk+ashwagandhadhi is also 'anecdotal'.
      My ayurvedic doctor refused to allow a 'sample group' of children who would be denied that medicine, and be left to fall ill, to 'prove' the efficacy. She said 'Allow them all good health. The disbeleivers can search out their own proofs.'
      The proof is on the field, and the people judge. Not allopaths !
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Many trials have been stopped midway if benefits are overwhelming. I can cite many such trials.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Because the control group should not be denied the benefit
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      Substituting flu shot with Gomuthra and propagating it as alternative is really dangerous. Replacing vaccines with whatever we like might be good for one, in a wider society it is very dangerous and leads to various epidemics.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Local people make wise and balanced choices based on what is available to then. Largely. Through the campaigns against breast milk, the village women have continued to breast feed their children. The people moved to allopathy when that was what was made available to them, though they held onto their systems also. Now when Ayurveda is offered they evaluate and choose.
      And yet a larger process of 'educating' them into considering all that is rural is backward will be dangerous.
      As regards flu shots, thats a very debateable intervention. But thats for another post !
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    • Lakshman Lakshminarayana
      There's nothing backward and forward in this 
      Aparna
      . Vaccines are for both rural and urban. Polio and Tuberculosis is almost eradicated from the country because of vaccination. Nobody is educating here. But declaring something which has worked for you or which you had heard working might not work for everyone. You need to be a qualified physician or a long term practitioner of native medicine to give a statement which someone else might take as a reference and apply for himself which might not be fruitful and might be even grave dangerous.
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    • Rajeev R. Singh
      Who campaigns against breast milk? Only milk powder manufacturers, not medical practitioners. 22 years ago the docs scared the daylights out of us by warning us giving anything other than exclusive breast feeding for our newly born kid for 6 months. We followed the advice then and even later for the second time for our next kid. Milk formula for kids has been banned since much earlier, mainly as a result of campaigns by docs amongst others....
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      yes, yes, I meant the corporates. the village people resisted that.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      I remember that I advised stopping breast milk for a child whose mother was on anti tb drugs.My chief Dr.CND reprimanded me severely for that .I went back and requested that lady to restart breast feeds.Village after village, state after state it was the qualified deracinated medical officers of PHCs who fought against the industry.
      Subha Deivanayagam
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      To take on the corporates is laudable.
      The post and thread are however on a different point.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Yes It is about taking good evidence based medical practices to people
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Ayurveda will prove its strength on its parameters. Doshas, Dhatus.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Once it is proven we shall definitely accept them and use them After all peoples health is our foremost concern.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      'we' meaning ?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      The ayurvedic doctors have not seeked acceptance from the allopaths !
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    • Suresh Boyapati
      People/Kids who are using more vaccines in US are more prone to autism .. I can show you 1000's of kids, suffered autism in US, due to vaccines (may be something else). If you dont like it, no issues, dont point out others !!
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  • Rajeev R. Singh
    Take ayurveda medicines where they work, take allopathy where it works, take Unani where it works; what's the issue? Why be a medical fundamentalist? All systems have been made by humans only. No system is perfect and none have stopped being developed … 
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  • Rajeev R. Singh
    Problem is that brahmanism has prevented the spread and proliferation of knowledge and information amongst the masses in our context. Once people begin to experiment and learn, and there is an environment where knowledge can spread, things improve.
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Correct Even Ayurveda remained an uppercaste privelge.I don't know of any dalit ayurvedic physician
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      That is your ignorance. Please read Dharampal. The Beautiful Tree. For archival details on the same.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      In most areas, the Brahmin scholars formed a very small
      proportion of those studying in schools. Higher learning,
      however, being more in the nature of professional specialisation,
      seems in the main to have been limited to the Brahmins. This
      was especially true regarding the disciplines of Theology,
      Metaphysics, Ethics, and to a large extent of the study of Law.
      But the disciplines of Astronomy and Medical Science seem to
      have been studied by scholars from a variety of backgrounds
      and castes. This is very evident from the Malabar data: out of
      808 studying Astronomy, only 78 were Brahmins; and of the 194
      studying Medicine, only 31 were Brahmins. Incidentally, in
      Rajahmundry, five of the scholars in the institution of higher
      learning were Soodras. According to other Madras Presidency
      surveys, of those practising Medicine and Surgery, it was found
      that such persons belonged to a variety of castes. Amongst them,
      the barbers, according to British medical men, were the best in
      Surgery.44
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    • Rajeev R. Singh
      Is Dharampal the only person who could prove me wrong ? Are you trying to say Brahmins spread information far and wide? They did not stop anyone and any community from reaching their heights ?
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Vaidya has almost become a caste name .Show me one Dalit with the surname of Vaidya
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    • Rajeev R. Singh
      Most knowledge was codified in Sanskrit and other languages, which was taboo to learn for Dalits and Shudras .....
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Siddha was different
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Rajeev R. Singh
       Counter authentic data with autentic data please. Ranting serves little purpose.
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    • Rajeev R. Singh
      It is interesting to note that 
      Aparna Krishnan
       you are asking for 'authentic' data and see my statement as a 'rant.' Well you are all the time ranting about everything in urban life, 'western' vs 'local', every other experience other than your own as being 'racinated' or whatever etc etc without any authentic data of any kind, other than your own experience! I have not seen you question caste and its ills, unless once in a while of course, it is in the urban context. What I am saying is all over. It needs no further authentication. However, you may read Caste and Race in India by Ghurye G.S. as a small step towards checking out what I say for its 'authenticity.' .....
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Rajeev R. Singh For those say that " we live as one" ; dalits and tribes form the largest nber of under trials in the country today..That IS an authentic data
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    • Suresh Boyapati
      Amalorpavanathan Joseph
       I can show a tribal doctor, who met I met last, shocked to see his knowledge about Ayurveda. He is treating scorpion bytes in 30-60 min ...
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    • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
      Good .Let him treat.I have no problem
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    Knowledge was handed down on caste lines
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    There are so many things I point out everyday that doctors should be fighting. They don't. They remain silent to their own blatant fallacies. But say anything about the traditional practices that kept us healthy for ages and they point out a few incidents to malign the totality. Sad. I have lost trust in doctors. Once upon a time I wanted to become one. Today I am glad I do not belong to that profession. I would have missed health by a mile. A profession that does not know anything about nutrition, derides the most useful herbs and foods, shames holistic healers and calls them street dogs, hates the word cure, and hates exercise, thinks listening to patients feedback is unscientific, threatens and abuses complaining patients is a profession to be avoided at all cost. I once thought reform was possible. Today I know how naive I was.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Those submitting to modern science were always arrogant, seeling all else as inferior. Today they are also threatened. Makes for a deadly combination.
    The terror in the allopathic circles when the TN government prescribed a siddha drug as a dengue preventive was palpable. They did their best to scuttle it. The people voted with their feet, and went at had the bitter potion at all the stalls.
    The medicine Nilavembu, Bhunimba in Sanskrit, is a a fundamental fever medicine in Ayurveda.
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    //Terror in Allopathic circles!!!// Fine prose madam. You write well.
    And time for me to do this small surgery..This disease cannot be cured by cows urine or Nilavembu. I have to operate. I have no pleasure in wielding the scalpel but when needed I will not hesitate. So thanks again
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    A standard Siddha medicine, as prescribed by Siddha doctors, was advised and dispensed by the TN government. The violent responses from the allopathic extablishment was a sight.
    Allopaths would do well to not assume that theirs is the only system in this land.
    The Siddha doctors are not demanding that allopaths prove themselves to them. There is no reason for them to do the reverse either. Thanks.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    "This cannot be cured by cows urine or Nilavembu. " I have no idea what 'this' is. Anyway our Nigantus have a parmacopia far vaster than allopathy can imagine - why just mention gmutra and nilavembu !
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    The allopaths objected using them to dispense Nilavembu. They don't care one way it other if Siddha doctor dispenses them on his own. And read the report of the central government doctors who evaluated the dengue surge in TN. And someday you will realise the politics behind Nilavembu in TN
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    This disease is renal failure. If you can cure them I can send atleast one patient a day.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Ok, thats fair. The allopath should not have to deal with medicines beyond his ken. As holds for other practitioners also.
    And parallely the government should increase the number of practioners of Indian Systems to match that of allopaths in its establishments.
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    So you were writing without even understanding why allopaths protested Nilavembu!!!
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Allopaths would do well to go by the understandings of seasoned practitioners of Siddha and Ayurveda, an old and hoary system of medicine, when it comes to their medicines and systems.
    Anyway I have little more to add. Peace. And goodbye.
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  • Jagannath Chatterjee
    Allopaths protested Nilavembu!!!! Allopaths remained silent about vaccines!!!!! The immense Dengvax scandal in Phillipines escaped their attention!!! 19 dead, 940 hospitalized, 837000 pushed into being time bombs!!!! And the lobby is still active and pushing the Govt to introduce it in India!!! Blind to the 67231 disabilities worldwide and 1243 deaths due to the HPV vaccine!!!! Actively lobbying to introduce into the UIP in India!!!! Wow! Such integrity!! Such honesty!!! So caring about health!!!
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  • Amalorpavanathan Joseph
    Jagannath Chatterjee
     I would have responded.Buy since you doubt my integrity and honesty, I have no interest in engaging in any discussion with you
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I would not take it personally.
      It is probably a comment on the allopathic world which has not responded as strongly to internal failures as it does to ayurveda.
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    • Jagannath Chatterjee
      I think Amal knows that but using this as an excuse he has avoided answering the post!
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  • Mahalakshmi Parthasarathy
    Frankly with plastic eating cows, exposed to antibiotics, not free ranging , milked excessively, pumped with oxytocin how do you expect anything good ..?
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  • Dushyant Rastogi
    So does cow meat, as per Charaka!
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      The medicinal properties of each meat, each milk, each urine has been detailed in the texts.


A friend in another thread asked why I was sceptical of modern science, and why I criticized those who returned to villages after IIT. Regarding the second, I have only respect for those who return to villages to work. I have only questioned why the fact of their having studied in IIT or in the local Arts college needs to be mentioned. It is only the ethical choice they made that counts. To mention IIT implies that that is a superior caste to the local Arts college. I beg to differ.
Regarding science - I have no fight with modern science. But I refuse to grant it the position of the ONLY valid system. And I also refuse the demand that other systems, including ayurveda, need to be validated in its language.
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    And IIT students claimed a far higher government subsidy than other colleges, and majority packed away abroad, defaulting on this debt to a poor mother country. Thereby their moral stature imo is overall more compromised.
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  • Srividhya Gopalakrishnan
    i sometimes seriously think that there has to be way of collecting back the subsidy offered to them after they graduate and start work
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    • Shyamala Sanyal
      Not just the subsidy but some continuing return too
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      No need to worry anymore. From next year on fees at IITs are going to be one and a half lakhs per semester. Move on to a new era where IITs become self financing institutions. A move so you won't ever feel guilty later. 🙂
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    The support a poor country gives thus goes far beyond the money ma. The dreams of the country are invested in them, at the cost of support that otherwise needed to be given to desperate villages. They need to return the debt with sweat and tears and loyalty to the nation that nurtured them. Otherwise let them keep the money as a gift from a poor country that they demanded and took !
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  • T.R. Shashwath
    All this raises the question - what exactly do you think is "modern" science, and how does it differ from "ancient" science?
    To my mind, "science" implies a rational and skeptical outlook. It's the scientific method that is important, not mumbo jumbo.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      well. if snake bites respond to mantrams, then mantrams work. if not, otherwise. period. yes, all verification needs to be done.
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    • T.R. Shashwath
      Here's the thing; once verification is done, you're not allowed to say "but it worked for me" - you need to look at the preponderance of data.
      And the mechanism of verification is important too - you can't just say "somebody knows somebody". It has to be a proper study. If possible, double-blind.
      Under those parameters, my hypothesis is that your mantrams will not survive. But those are the only parameters that are worth talking about.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      yes. agreed. test.
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    • Balachander Swaminathan
      In the modern world, 'scientific' seems to be what is defined in publication of four publishers...Elsevier, Springer, ACS and ... (one more which I forget).... who publish more than 90% of what is considered scientific publishings....I would never be willing to swear by anything that is controlled by such a small group... Also to all people who swear by what has been taught to us as 'scientific' I like to point to this essay by venki, https://www.linkedin.com/.../great-truth-venkataraman..., where the difference between 'small truth' and 'greater truth' and 'convergent' and 'divergent' problems is explored.... It helps clear our head around the fact that a fixed set of processes and metrics cannot be used to measure everything else.... and if that is used, all other systems would always be found wanting.... example... if instead of short term yield, we were to use 'inches of top soil created' as the metric for agri productivity, where would the 'published studies' on chemical based farming stand?... and with new topsoil created we may even have better yield and nutrition over the long term... Once we marry ourself to fixed metrics like double-blind peer review (and having been involved in research i fully understand how non water-tight those processes are), we constrain our ability to understand what is beyond the boundaries of that system.... and thats what I believe is the main problem with people who swear by allopathy and can't accept other forms of healing... Disclaimer: I have, for several years used both, allopathy and homeopathy and both have worked for me... homeopathy with no side effects.... so now homeopathy is the first line of defence for me and it works 95% of the time... and for the other 5% I'm happy to try out allopathy or anything else
      The Great Truth
      LINKEDIN.COM
      The Great Truth
      The Great Truth
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Balachander Swaminathan
      , could you give the critique of the double bling study. I have it thrown at me all the time in connection with our ayurveda.
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    • T.R. Shashwath
      Balachander Swaminathan
       Don't get me started on Elsevier! Bloody rent-seekers!
      On the other hand, scientific publications *don't make science what it is*. The scientists who publish do. The problem with the publications is that they have very shady copyright rules, not that what they publish is crap.
      "Also to all people who swear by what has been taught to us as 'scientific' "
      Again, I'm not talking about what we sucked up from textbooks and vomited on exam sheets. I'm talking about the scientific method.
      "Once we marry ourself to fixed metrics like double-blind peer review"
      If you were really into medical research, you would never have used such an abortion of a phrase. Double-blind studies and peer review are two *entirely different things*.
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    • T.R. Shashwath
      Aparna Krishnan
       In case you don't know, double blind studies are those in which there are a large group of subjects, a researcher and somebody who actually administers the study. For example, let's say it's a drug that's being tested. In a double blind study, half the participants would get the actual drug, and the other half would get a placebo (or maybe another older drug, depending on the study). The guy who administers the test doesn't know which is which, and the participants don't know what they're getting. That way, they administer the test, and then gather the results without actually knowing what the medication really was.
      The researcher (who knows who got what) can then correlate between the two groups and see what the difference in efficacy was. If the drug was really effective, you would expect at least a 95% confidence that it was more effective than the placebo or other drug. So, if 50% of the control group got better and only 51% of the study group did, that would be considered no better than the placebo effect. However, if 90% of the study group did, confidence levels would be much higher.
      For sure, p-values can be hacked using selective reporting and so on. Which is why we have peer review to ensure that the computations were done correctly.
      One process that we often miss is reproducibility. It is always best if this kind of study is done by multiple groups, to eliminate researcher bias or just some error in data collection. In their rush to discover new things, most groups don't work on reproducing old results. This is definitely a problem that has been recognised by many people.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Balachander Swaminathan
       mentioned a loophole there. Requested him to elaborate.
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    • T.R. Shashwath
      I think he means p-hacking. That was found to be a major problem in literally thousands of studies coming out of China for example (not to say that China is all bad - thousands more were absolutely great). They had to throw out lots and lots of data.
      Thankfully, in medicine, those were mostly for treatments that were yet to hit the market.
      p-hacking means that you fiddle with the data through selective reporting, or just by manipulating the statistics, in order to show a significance to the technique under study that's just not there.
      For example, it is possible, using the right dividing line, to get a result of high significance even with a 1% difference between two populations.
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    • T.R. Shashwath
      More explanation: "p" is the probability of the null hypothesis - that is, the control group shows the same behaviour as the study group. If p < 0.05, it's usually taken as a statistically significant result. But several manipulations by the researcher… 
      See More
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    • Balachander Swaminathan
      p hacking is one of the things happenning and happens in medicine as well (google for 'the cholesterol myth'.... deeper subject... don't want to hijack this thread with this issue)... Other issues also like the non p hacking related facts like the Gates foundation recent funding of the Merck cervical vaccine given to minors in Khammam, which resulted in a few deaths and other issues... with the intent of measuring effect of vaccine on minors, but showing it as an act of philanthrophy...... However as I understand, this thread is not about the malpractices, it is about naming something that does not fit into a paradigm which people call 'scientific' as bogus.... With double blind peer review, I was referring to the review mechanism which many journals use.... https://www.google.co.in/search...
      what is double blind peer review - Google Search
      GOOGLE.CO.IN
      what is double blind peer review - Google Search
      what is double blind peer review - Google Search
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    • Balachander Swaminathan
      I identify with Dr KC Kumarappa's thoughts and would say that his book 'Economy of Permanence', which only recently read, helped clarify a lot of what I was feeling.... For understanding and reflecting on the case of 'Science' Vs 'everything else', I would suggest reading/re-reading the chapter on 'Valuation' (and in fact the whole book) from that book. I firmly believe what we call 'scientific' is just one method (with multiple methodologies within that framework), from which mankind has benefited... Mankind also has benefited immensely from systems which are outside the understanding of what is generally referred to as 'scientific', and it is in our good interests to give it due importance and take the time out to understand them... Sadly our prescribed education system completely ignores these to the detriment of the human race
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Till the day school syllabus incorporates vata pitta and kapha, just as it discusses vitamins and protiens, we will never recover our inherited knowlege of ayurveda.

Nor ourselves.


Nitesh Bhasker

The scientific community and those who follow it dogmatically suffer from an arrogance rooting from a tendency to apply all of its theories and methods universally. Cognizant of the fact that even in terms of their strict and pure methodology they have not reached omniscience, they are disdainful of disciplines that in contemporary times appear lower in status to them. Hence they are ever-ready to launch misinformed offensives. For example the offensive to put homeopathy to scientific trial by 'double blind placebo trials' is not fair to the discipline merely because homeopathic medicines are based on an individual’s profiles and his overall symptoms. Hence merely detailing a list of medicines for a particular aliment and prescribing it in any manner may not produce a result. Homeopathic medicines do not work like other active substances and largely they try to trigger a response in the patient. Once an individual begins responding, he tends to get habituated to that remedy and the response diminishes. Hence homeopaths tend to lower the frequency of the remedy and increase its potency. Other methods specific to their knowledge of the discipline are also applied which does not correspond to conventional scientific thought or may appear absurd to those outside the discipline. Responses vary according to individuals and treatment method. Hence to put a discipline to trial by methods specific to another may be a bogus method of analyzing the true potential of the same. Those who view homeopathy from their scientific perspective tend to be looking for the active ingredient. That will always remain an elusive mystery to them because many homeopathic medicines in its undiluted form do not work for specific functional and chronic disorders but only the higher dilutions do. It is indeed possible to tell whether a particular system of medicine is effective by considering the individual’s experience because it is the individual who presents with certain symtoms and he is who has to be treated. What use is a particular system extremely particular and pure in classification of diseases and its diagnosis when all it seeks to achieve is to establish itself over all others, position itself to be supreme and not treat the individual. Anti-inflammatories, antibiotics, anti-allergics, and all other anti…s many times alleviate only the symptoms and does not eliminate the underlying disorders. So should they be considered fraud and said to only fool patients. ? Should that be a criteria to determine the potential and efficacy of conventional medical science. ? It’s like saying treat me with respect else I shall put you to double blind placebo trials. In any case for the individual a particular system, whether legitimized or delegitimized, will be considered useful if it treats him. Homeopathy has therefore withstood assaults by modern medical practitioners for two centuries and its popularity remains intact. I am neither a practitioner, nor a proponent of homeopathy, but have merely replied to your above comment.
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