Wednesday, 15 November 2017

Discussions on Caste, Dharampals 'The Beautiful Tree'

Aparna Krishnan
15 November 2014 at 23:14
Education reached a wide society in the past. Unlike what we have been told. 

Dharampal, 'The Beautiful Tree'
" ... which presents a kind of revelation. The data reveals the
background of the teachers and the taught. It presents a picture
which is in sharp contrast to the various scholarly pronouncements
of the past 100 years or more, in which it had been
assumed that education of any sort in India, till very recent
decades, was mostly limited to the twice-born amongst the
Hindoos, and amongst the Muslims to those from the ruling
elite. The actual situation which is revealed was different, if not
quite contrary, for at least amongst the Hindoos, in the districts
of the Madras Presidency (and dramatically so in the Tamilspeaking
areas) as well as the two districts of Bihar. It was the
groups termed Soodras, and the castes considered below them
who predominated in the thousands of the then still-existing
schools in practically each of these areas. ... "
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Kannan Thandapani When I read it, I was surprised too (and cited it extensively in my essay on Nai Talim). But a few points that should also be noted:
1. Untouchability meant that the Dalits were mostly excluded.
2. 'Higher education', except for a few streams, was for Brahmins only.
3. Women were excluded. (apart from those who were homeschooled).
15 November 2014 at 23:53
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Aparna Krishnan Untouchability has been a God-damned crimes, and a blot on the Indian civiliation. It need Ambedkars and Gandhis and more to address. My contention is that caste and untouchability needed to be viewed seperately. Caste is more than this perversion of Dalithood.
16 November 2014 at 06:52
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Aparna Krishnan Yes, Dharampal mentions the point about women too. Such a factual rendition is what is needed in this day and age of flying assertions.
16 November 2014 at 06:53
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Aparna Krishnan Is your article online Kannan ?
16 November 2014 at 06:53
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Kannan Thandapani Aparna - 
I don't see how caste and untouchability can be delinked. Gandhi tried to do that, theoretically, for a long time, but his enthusiasm for caste and varnas had diminished significantly during his later days. He started insisting on inter-caste weddings, especially that one of the couple should be Harijan. Narayan Desai had mentioned to me that Gandhi didn't attend his wedding, because, though it was mixed-caste, neither of them was a Harijan. So he gave them only 'second-class blessings'. 

Once inter-caste marriages become the norm (which is still only at about 5% now), how can caste exist?

On paper, the caste system, or the more glorified varna system, held a romantic appeal to the likes of Bharathi and Gandhi. But, in practice, they themselves had never been bound by it. I feel, it is the same with you too.

Untouchability was probably easier to spot and fight (and we are still struggling). The deeper ills of caste are better masked. When the caste system has been repeatedly creating situations like what we saw in Dharmapuri last year, I can't see how we can expect it to bring any good in future.
16 November 2014 at 08:42
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Kannan Thandapani My essay on Nai Talim is in Tamil:

http://urakkacholven.wordpress.com/.../%E0%AE%95%E0%AE.../
காந்தியக் கல்வி : காந்தியத்தின் ஆதாரம்
காந்தி இன்று இணைய இதழில் வெளிவந்த…
URAKKACHOLVEN.WORDPRESS.COM
16 November 2014 at 08:47
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Aparna Krishnan Kannan, caste is a structure of the indian society, as is religiousness. Some things are given. The vast kinship and support that exists within the caste framework has much going for it. And then the divisions and hierarchies of the caste get subverted again and again in unexpected ways. And at day's end - when I see all rural children go thro' schooling and stand unemployed, I even wonder about the employment guarentee that the system gave. The space to move has to be assured, equal respect for all activities has to be assured, and if that was not past of the 'ancient caste system' (i dont know) we will demand it ...
16 November 2014 at 09:11
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Aparna Krishnan And to Gandhi, again, caste system with intercaste marriages was a possibility ! One takes what one finds valid, one re-interprets, one changes ... I do not owe alleigence to what Manu wrote (though I want to read it - as these days much is being said without serious scholarship i feel).
16 November 2014 at 10:40Edited
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Aparna Krishnan my village Kannan Thandapani - "When i moved to the village, i thought it was 'so wrong' that Naidus lived in a community, dalits in another hamlet, irulas in the SC hamlet and so on. I decided that the 'harijan hamlet' was 'outide' the main village, and that this was 'casteism'. 
So we moved into the harijan hamlet, and made the small hut there our home. The village became home, and life flowed in its beauty. Over many years i realized that no one is 'outisde' ... every community wishes to stay with their people, and they have their own customs and structures ... and the harijans do not wish to stay next door to naidus, nor the other way around.

I dicovered that 'caste the villian', is a very limited viewpoint ... and actually no caste feels inferior. Each feels very superior. The dalits make fun of the naidus and their mannerisms, and the other way around.

We only need to address the shattered economies ... their society they are well capable to handling without our bumbling efforts, often rooted in wrong notions."
16 November 2014 at 09:39
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Aparna Krishnan And this was a conversation with Surya, whom we met at the Bank to Land Kannan, "... where I had mentioned the utter damage schooling has done to rural children, leaving them neither fit for village activities, or other dream jobs, one youngster came to me. 

'Madam, but you all say you are looking for alternatives. In the past did not village occupations exist in an integrated way in village communities'. I told him I agreed completely. Then he dared to step further, 'Did not the caste system integrate occupations in a sustainable manner ?'. I again told him I concurred completely, and also felt that while untouchability was a cardinal sin, the caste system was being linked with it and was wrongly maligned. I told him that I also agreed that it had vast strengths. And some distortions which needed corrections. 

He was emboldened, and said, 'I think the caste system was 95% valid', and then looking at me, ventured, "Actually 100% ... only some corrections needed'.

I was impressed that in a day and time when caste is a bad word, a yougnster in his twenties had been able to think on his own and form a clear and different opinion ... there is scope for an honest and indepth search. And an urgent need also."
16 November 2014 at 09:41
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Aparna Krishnan "Paalaguttapalle (Dalitwada) (... and i say this after living with the community as a neighbour, as a friend ... and after years have passed and realities fell in place).

The caste system and untouchability are different. Nobody resents their caste, and the caste is also a strong community concept, with substantial support networks built in. Untouchability when practiced is seen as demeaning, and is indeed deeply demeaning.

Caste gives stability and support to a community. It gives them a social identity and a support network in needs like employment and health. People gather together at marriages, deaths and other functions and the community bonds are reinforced. Caste also gives different communities, under an overarching framework, freedom to practice their customs and beliefs. Often castes live in separate settlements. The Maalapalle is separate, and like other castes, the Maalas are quite satisfied staying in their own space.

There are many occasions where in a caste based society, caste is irrelevant. Anandiah is the priest at the Aanjaneyalu temple in the Reddy village of Varadappanaidupeta. The Maalapalle washerman, though lower in caste, is the priest in all the Maalapalle Gangamma functions. In the Bharatam story and drama celebrations, caste divisions do not exist. All castes together pull the tapasu maanu pole during the Bharatam. Woman of all castes together circle the tree in dripping clothes to pray for a child. In case of snake bites, all people come to Bhagavanthayya to his hut in Maalapalle. People come to Maalapalle to Annapurna to get their blouses stitched. When Vasantamma was working in Venkataraamapuram, she made friends with some upper caste women who would even borrow her gold earrings for weddings.

Untouchability is another story. It is resented deeply."
16 November 2014 at 09:42
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Aparna Krishnan And Naren's views were very similar after spending 20 years in the village - with deep engagements with the Left, and the Gandhians, and the Dalits.
16 November 2014 at 09:43
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Aparna Krishnan But i also agree with your observation - overall i am probably presenting an extreme position, even more than i beleive or live by ... more as a reaction ! I refer to your sugar coated, "On paper, the caste system, or the more glorified varna system, held a romantic appeal to the likes of Bharathi and Gandhi. But, in practice, they themselves had never been bound by it. I feel, it is the same with you too."
16 November 2014 at 09:48Edited
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கண்ணன் thanks Aparna Krishnan mam, you the one , who understood my points clearly.......
16 November 2014 at 10:19
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கண்ணன் PLEASE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS CASTE?
16 November 2014 at 10:20
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கண்ணன் CASTE IS A SYSTEM WHICH WAS BROUGHT FOR MANAGEMENT. EXAMPLE:: POLICE ,JUDICIARY . GOVERMENT ETC..............
16 November 2014 at 10:32Edited
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கண்ணன் WE SEE DISCRIMINATION IN ALL THESE SYSTEM ALSO..........
16 November 2014 at 10:33
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Aparna Krishnan Yes, every system gets perverted. And needs to be corrected again and again. Every civiliation inherits a framework, which is its own. And we need to see it, correct it, adapt it ...
16 November 2014 at 10:38Edited
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கண்ணன் CASTE SYSTEM GAVE -> GOOD UNDERSTANDING FAMILY, OCCUPATION, SHARING, BONDING WITH NATURE & LAND, SHARING HUMAN RESOURCE , BONDING WITH ANIMALS .....
16 November 2014 at 10:36
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Kannan Thandapani Aparna 
I am not equating caste system with untouchability. I am just saying there is an irrefutable causal link there. Even if untouchability goes, there has always been, and there will always be a system of hierarchy in castes, which even economic success seldom breaks. 

I was having a conversation with my mom today. I observed that she was addressing an old lady who was selling greens regularly to us, in singular (நீ, வா, போ). In Coimbatore, the respectful plural is the norm (நீங்க, வாங்க). I asked her why she was doing it. Was it because she assumed the lady was from a lower caste. Would she do it, if the lady was a Brahmin, who is equally poor, or if she would like it if a lady from an upper caste who is younger than my mom, called her in singular...of course, not. My mom could only say it was not deliberate and came out of habit. There is an economic basis for this habit but there is a huge casteist inheritance as well. And I know, she is not a typical casteist. Both my sister and I have married outside our caste, and we all stay together now. Yet, this is one of the deep scars that caste has left on all of us. I am sure there might be remnants in me too, which I would be ashamed of, if I spot them. 

For all the great things I see in a village, I am seeing rampant casteism too. I have got into an agreement to buy a land with plans to settle in that village. When I asked the seller to help me identify a house which we can rent for sometime, first, he started ruling out areas which will not be 'suitable' for me - based on caste and religion. I see this segregative thinking repeatedly.

And you say, people like staying with their caste members. I feel, that is only half-true. The question we should ask is, if a Dalit wants to stay in an upper caste region in your village, will they be allowed to do it?

Let us not mix family system, professional arrangements, community bonding and cultural affinity, with caste. They can, and should, exist independent of caste. If intercaste marriages are allowed to become widespread, caste will become irrelevant. My daughter doesn't belong to either of our castes but belongs to both our extended families.

Maybe, I will appreciate your point better with more experience. But, with whatever limited experience I have gained so far, in cities and villages, this is what I strongly feel. Whatever were the historical reasons and justification for the emergence of caste, we don't need those crutches anymore. I am saying this without disengaging from, or disowning, our overall cultural heritage.
16 November 2014 at 12:18Edited
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Aparna Krishnan "Let us not mix family system, professional arrangements, community bonding and cultural affinity, with caste. They can, and should, exist independent of caste." In principle maybe Kannan. But my understanding is that every civilia tion has certian foundations, and we usually need to build on them, retaining the good there, and correcting the perversions, and questioing what is fundamentally wrong therein. The Muslim countries need to build on and correct and review their Koran, maybe. For us, i feel it is religion, based on the Mahabharatam and Ramayanam and the Gangamma jatra (even with the animal sacrifices - which I differ less and less with, unless someone wishes to question non-vegetarianism itself in totality, which I would not do) and a deeply accepted and lived by dharmam. Religion, and yes, the caste system. It is part of the detailed structure of society, and is here as part of our lives. There is good to it, which must be retained, and ills which need to questioned and corrected. No number of intercate marriages will eliminate it. And I for one do not feel it needs to be eliminated, only corrected ... as has been since 5000 years of this civiliation.
16 November 2014 at 13:55
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Naveen Manikandan Periasamy Aparna Krishnan In my view caste oppression existed only in Kerala (at-least before invasions) and this is because the basic Varna rules were contorted beyond reasonable limits and rewritten by Namboodhiris. In rest of the country, in majority people of all castes and communities existed in harmony just as you point out in the story of 'unity in diversity' in your village. The word, “Dalit,” means down trodden ” and was a term invented by a 19th century activist Jotirao Govindrao Phule who fought to remove the stigma of “untouchability” in India. Before this the current connotation associated with this word was unheard of.
16 November 2014 at 14:36
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Aparna Krishnan Yes, in my village, which is a fairly ordinary and typical village there is amity. I stand by that. There is poverty, which is a crime before god and man. That needs to be addressed. For that poverty I would consider us well off responsible ! Our Reddys and Kammas are also small and marginal farmers only !!
16 November 2014 at 14:43
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Naveen Manikandan Periasamy Aparna Krishnan About Manu Smriti which you referred to, the author is not a Bigot. People like Kancha Illaih, Ambedkar and EVR Periyar love to quote the fake verse - "If a Shudra listens to the Vedas molten lead should be poured into his ears “. The author of the book is not a Schizophrenic to talk about rules of Dharma including compassion on one hand and persecution and torture on the other hand. Read more on this here -- http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.com/.../dharma-in-hinduism...
16 November 2014 at 14:44Edited
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Kannan Thandapani Aparna - This link brought me back to this thread. How can these perversions be overcome by staying within the caste framework?

http://www.thehindu.com/.../parties.../article6625736.ece...See more
Parties confine SC candidates to reserved seats
Political parties continue to limit the participation of…
THEHINDU.COM
23 November 2014 at 13:36
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Aparna Krishnan Kannan, for one thing the caste system is here to stay, Every civilization has its inherited structure, which I do not think can be wished away. After conversions, the converted Christians follow a caste system. A structure has its strengths and weaknesses and distortions - I feel we need to focus on the latter two. And I continue to see untouchability - the avarnas - as a separate and a heinous problem, from the varnashrama itself.
23 November 2014 at 15:05
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Naveen Manikandan Periasamy Kannan Thandapani Your observations on caste segregation in today's society are correct, but do take into consideration that habits are not fundamental to society and depends on the bring up of each individual. My mother for instance was brought up in a poor farming family and although she has come up in life and irrespective of caste her criteria for addressing a person with singulars or plurals are based on age alone as far as I have observed. Squarely blaming entire cultural and tradional value systems for certain perverse practices is not fair. There should not be any restrictions if two individuals out of their own will decide to marry out of caste. But, there is a problem if this becomes a organised movement. We do not want EVR Periyars shoving down their values down our throats. When built up resentments become mass movements people are usurped to denigrate and discard all cultural values and practices without discrimination. Added to that vultures like evangelists and leftists take this oppurtunity to deepen the fissures within society to facilitate conversions and political subversion. We need to think deeply before making up our minds in this matter and avoid dogma.
23 November 2014 at 15:10Edited
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Aparna Krishnan At one level today the caste system in spirit is not there. Where are the Brahmins - who are supposed to live to teach society, and survive on bhiksha. They are extinct as a species. Caste based occupations are also on the wane with universal schooling. They function as close knit communities. But that identity, and ensueing support within is very strong. A Kamma who has moved to the town, takes care of other Kammas who go there. When a Maala goes to the town, he stays with a Maala. But these close knit communities also keep traditions and practices alive. And space for vast variations of practices is allowed in a system that has an overarching structures and divisions wherein freedom in allowed.
23 November 2014 at 15:13
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Aparna Krishnan And at the risk of playing with fire, I will also say that I regret the loss of caste based occupations. And I would wish for would be space for mobility across occupations if that desire was there. But the caste based occupations gave a society a job security that cannot be assured by any NREGA or other systems. Today all my children are schooled, colleged and jobless. And on their way to becoming drunks. Their schooling has left them unfit for and unwilling to do traditional occupations. And unfit to in anyway compete with our elite children and land a white collar job. It is heartbreaking and souldestroying. Were there a system of inherited occupations - yes, and one will together fight for them to be valued reasonabley at par and compensated reasonably at par - I can imagine the job security that would have given these children.
23 November 2014 at 15:28
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Aparna Krishnan I agree with Naveen, than any step has to be taken with deep understanding of a society - which is sometimes acquired only after years of staying with them. We need to remember that in a deep sense we are alienated from the common people, in thought itself, because of our transference to a different language (English) and a different system (modern science) which has been fed to us with mother's milk itself almost. And also because most of us are deeply irreligious, while the framework of the ordinary Indian is a simple religiosity, in which his ethical system is deeply rooted.
23 November 2014 at 15:35
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Kannan Thandapani I respect your understanding of the current situation in your village, which I am sure will come only with spending decades there. But I am asking some questions about caste for which I don't find any satisfactory answers from you or others. In asking those questions, I am not undermining the need for local communities. I am only insisting that the idea of natural communities should be separated from the forced idea of caste. Can caste exist without discrimination? Has it ever existed in such a pure form?

Your village may have amity but is it typical? What about the village in Dharmapuri, which was burnt down to protest a wedding? What about those Dalits who were protesting against the murder of their brethren in Maharashtra, during the swearing-in last week? What about the Ranvir Sena? The Guru Pujas? 

Is the movie, Fandry, a mere work of fiction? (if you haven't watched it yet, you should...we may disagree with the solution but not the sentiments and the stark reality it portrays)

When ordinary, amiable villagers tell me, with presumably good intentions, not to buy land in an area, or rent a house in an area, because it is populated with lower castes or Muslims, how am I to make sense of that?

My friend told me about his village near Karur, where he had sponsored a mandapam to be built in a temple, but has been barred, by his caste, from teaching Thirukkural to the Dalits there. Is caste not responsible for this?

Even in the heart of Chennai, when many house-owners ask the probing proxy question, 'Are you vegetarian?', should I discount the underpinnings of caste? [You might say people want to stay with their own caste but I call it as discrimination.]

When I see friends in their 30s, remaining unhappily unmarried, because their parents refuse to let them marry outside their caste, are we to hail it?

When it comes to discrimination, it operates at many levels - including economic, race and class, and getting rid of caste alone will not put an end to all discrimination; but can we deny that caste based discrimination is the biggest of them all? 

No. There is much to feel proud about our culture; but caste is not one of them. I repeatedly ask, How can you correct these ills, without disturbing the very foundation of caste? Periyar or Ambedkar cannot be dismissed so easily (whatever be our differences with them) - there was a social necessity that gave rise to them. We cannot deny that. When there are organized movements to protect caste there are bound to be organized movements to challenge them.

Gandhi paid the price for his early views on caste, by now being alienated from his 'Harijans', who he loved the most, for whom he did the most, and who still need him the most.

A casteless society, with strong community bonding, may be as much of a distant idealistic dream as a 'caste system with no evils'. But I find the former, a much worthier dream to dream and strive for. If certain elements of our culture have to be sacrificed for that end, so be it.

Personally for me, if I have to seek some sanction from ancient texts, the Aram (not very different from the Dharmam of your village) of Thirukkural is the one that fits my temperament. It exists mostly outside caste and religion, without being irreligious. That is very much my, and our, culture, as much as anything else.
24 November 2014 at 14:54
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