Paalaguttapalle (Dalitwada) - A Village: A Long Discussion on Castes and Jatis

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The most ancient form of human touch and feel relationships, built on wisdom, direct intimate emotional and spiritual experimentation is the foundation of Human Collectives .

And there is NO SUCH THING AS PRIVACY .

For we are collective beings .

There is INTIMACY and INNER INFINITY .

And those can never ever be documented or governed by any power outside of those directly engaged . If that , at best .

So the Urbanistas get scared by the Shias flogging themselves , the Hindus doing Kanwar Yatras or Ganpati Visarjans or Christians nailing themselves to crosses .

But they are OK with Mass Hysteria on Rockstars and False Gods of Cinema , and having drugs and raves .

So simply .

The Western Consensus of Modernity is now an unmitigated disaster .

And a hundred religious and spiritual resurgences are happening since last few decades and will only become larger and larger .
As God who was Dead , is now Reborn in various Avatars .

I feel sorry for the Atheistic Seculars .

For the Theistic Pluralists , there is no problem at all.

Since long we have known that Monocultures are bad for Agriculture and Nature .

So Long Live Multi-Diverse , Families, Jatis , Religions , Peoples .
And let the dried-up spiritless , soulless , intellectuals wither away.

Jai Sanatan Srijan Satsang .

Hail The Eternal Creative Communion.

Komakkambedu Himakiran, Sahana Singh and 13 others

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Aparna Krishnan
Sunny Narang
.
This is the crux Atheistic Seculars versus Theistic Pluralists !
1
Chittaroopa Palit
How do we justify varna vyavastha.
1
- Sunny Narang
  Firstly do you mean varna or jati ? And you can read Subhash Kak on this , among many others . " The Indian words that caste supposedly translates are jati,
  which means a large kin-community or descent-group, and varna , which
  implies a classification based on function. The word varna is from
  ancient Sanskritic theory and it has no real relevance; the word jati
  properly denotes what may be termed as a group bound by customs and
  traditions. The dynamics between the jatis has been influenced a great
  deal by historical and political factors. During the periods of
  economic growth, the jatis have been relatively open-ended; during
  periods of hardships the jatis have tended to draw in for the sake of
  survival. The word `caste' comes from the Portugese casta , a word
  that was meant to describe the jati system, but slowly it has come to
  have a much broader connotation.
  Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador to India, noted the existence of
  seven classes that were apparently jatis. The jatis were integrated
  into a cooperative system where each had a role and was cared for. One
  could consider it as a kind of a decentralized social security system
  where contracts were negotiated within the yajamana ( jajmani )
  framework. The dominant caste provided basic necessities to the other
  jati groups in exchange for services. The activities in the village
  could be viewed as a symbolic ritual where the yajamana was the
  patron. The yajamana system is thus based on the recognition by the
  dominant group that it is a part of a larger community and therefore it
  has an obligation to support the other communities.
  Rigveda 10.90 speaks of the Brahmana, Rajanya (Kshatriya), Vaishya, and
  Shudra as having sprung from the head, the arms, the thighs, and the
  feet of Purusha, the primal man. This mention of varnas has been taken
  to indicate that a caste system existed in the Vedic times. But it is
  repeatedly mentioned elsewhere that each human is in the image of the
  Purusha which would indicate that each human internalizes aspects of
  all the varnas. Many texts proclaim that one's nature alone, and not
  birth, determines to which varna one belongs. It is generally agreed
  that in the ancient Aryan society the varnas were functional groupings
  and not closed endogamous birth-descent groups. Basham (1967, p.148)
  suggests that the jati system in its modern form developed very late.
  The Chinese scholar Hsuan Tsang in the seventh century was not aware of
  it. As a response to historical events one might then credit the
  emergence of the modern ja ti system to the next fundamental change in
  the Indian polity that occurred with the invasions of the Turks.
  In its long history India has had diverse social and religious
  currents. It is only in the exception that the reality has conformed
  to the theory of the Dharma Shastras . The Vaishnavas emphatically
  define varna based on one's actions. Bhagavata Purana 7.11 proclaims
  clearly: "One's nature alone determines to which varna one belongs".
  The Tantrists claim that all those who accept the Kula (Tantric) dharma
  become Kauls (Mahanirvana Tantra 14.180-9).
  What is caste
  If one limits oneself to an analysis of the term jati, one would see
  that its implications have varied with history. Many scholars believe
  that the system of jati that we have now emerged only about a thousand
  years ago. If we accept that view then this emergence was perhaps a
  response to the catastrophic disruption to legal and political
  institutions caused by the Turkish invasions. With the destruction of
  the previous political order, different occupational communities
  created their own systems of justice and governance. In this
  situation, a local social structure developed which centered about the
  dominant community.
  Although jatis may pay lip service to the Brahmin as an intermediary to
  the gods when it comes to ritual, each caste considers itself to be the
  highest. If the Brahmins were to be accepted as the highest caste then
  other castes would have no hesitation in giving their daughters to the
  Brahmins. But in reality they do not. The Rajputs consider the
  Brahmins to be other-wordly or plain beggars; the traders consider the
  Brahmins to be impractical; and so on. In classical Sanskrit plays the
  fool is always a Brahmin. In other words, each different community has
  internalized a different outlook on life but these outlooks cannot be
  placed in any hierarchical ordering. The internalized images of the
  other must, by its very nature, be a gross simplification and it will
  never conform exactly to reality." http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/caste3
  2
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  3y
- Sunny Narang
  Every society has an understanding of temperament types , especially in understanding health issues . But as temperament types of theory are mapped on reality of the thousands of occupations as they arise in human history and specialization gets intense , the theories always fail . But interlinking hierarchies of communities have existed everywhere and will exist forever . Not a single society , after few tribal societies during hunter gatherer stage exist without some form of extreme slavery of exploitation , as all civilization is and will remain based on natural resource and labour extraction . So simply social mobility , both upwards and downwards is an eternal social reality . Varna and Jati have to be seen in same contexts . In other places its race , ethnicity , economic and social classes along with a temperament that achieves success , what is meritocracy , except a continuous game in which some win , others slave Every nation chooses its game, which is different at different times , earlier the warriors won like Alexander and Ashoka , then the Politicians or Vaishyas or Traders win ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_temperaments
  EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
  Four temperaments - Wikipedia
  Four temperaments - Wikipedia
  2
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- Sunny Narang
  And if you really want to understand the Peoples of India , you should go through the
  Anthropological Survey of India
  series , and get a hold of the incredible ethnic and pluralist diversity of India with more than 800 indigenous peoples with different community rules besides every possible religion . "This list was taken to the field, tested and checked, and finally 4635 communities were identified and studied. Unlike surveys in the colonial period, which covered British India and a few princely states, our project covers the whole country, bringing within its ambit such parts as had not been ethnographically surveyed earlier or where the survey had been done in a perfunctory way. Each state and union territory was treated as a unit of study. It was decided to start with an investigation of the least-known communities, and then move on to a field- study of the lesser-known and better-known ones........................The progress in the investigation and coverage of communities from 2nd October 1985 to 31 March 1992 was steady and impressive. To repeat, we were able to identify, locate and study 4635 communities in all the states and union territories of India, out of the 6748 listed initially. As many as 600 scholars participated in this project, including 19;’ from 26 institutions. About 100 workshops and rounds of discussions were held in all the states and union territories, and in these about 3000 scholars participated." https://ansi.gov.in/people-of-india/
  ANSI.GOV.IN
  People of India | Antropological Survey of India
  People of India | Antropological Survey of India
  2
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  3y
- Sunny Narang
  Now simply take a land that has been around for thousands of years , with an invasion every 20-25 years from Central Asia , movements of peoples from China and SE Asia into the NE of India over hundreds of years , onto an ancient land with its own multiple communities and peoples since tens of thousands of years . The thousands of religious sects , Linagayats come from a Guru lineage of Basava , what does that have to do with varna ? Take Chippas or hand block printers or Neelgars indigo dyers among Muslims , what does that have to do with varna ? Jats , Yadavs , Gujjars are are almost same level OBC farming castes with similar ancestry but they see themselves as very different just as Khasis , Garos and Jaintias see themselves are different tribes . USA has its census taken on basis of race or actually colour ! In fact divide whites into Hispanic and Non Hispanic ! That is specific caste of Spanish or North European descent more specifically Anglo-Saxon/Gaul/Germanic .
  2
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  3y
- Sunny Narang
  Simply Varna and jati are theoretical temperament , psychological type theory that is very broad mapped onto a complex eons old social reality of multiple races which intermixed !
  2
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  3y
- Sunny Narang
  The Varna and the Jatis of India are blamed for being restrictive for social mobility .
  Please read the essay below .
  It seems clear that so-called social mobility is within clans mostly , across countries, across time .
  Individual families may go down , but clan names persist .
  And 800 years shows it .
  "How much of our fate is tied to the status of our parents and grandparents? How much does it influence our children? More than we wish to believe.
  While it has been argued that rigid class structures have eroded in favor of greater social equality, The Son Also Rises proves that movement on the social ladder has changed little over eight centuries.
  Using a novel technique--tracking family names over generations to measure social mobility across countries and periods--renowned economic historian Gregory Clark reveals that mobility rates are lower than conventionally estimated, do not vary across societies, and are resistant to social policies. Clark examines and compares surnames in such diverse cases as modern Sweden and Qing Dynasty China.
  He demonstrates how fate is determined by ancestry and that almost all societies have similarly low social mobility rates.
  Challenging popular assumptions about mobility and revealing the deeply entrenched force of inherited advantage, The Son Also Rises is sure to prompt intense debate for years to come."
  The Son Also Rises – Surnames and the History of Social Mobility (The Princeton Economic History of the Western World) by Gregory Clark.
  https://www.amazon.in/Son-Also-Rises-Surnames-…/…/0691162549
  “The top earners among the current taxpayers were found to have already been at the top of the socioeconomic ladder six centuries ago,” Barone and Mocetti note on VoxEU. The study was able to exploit a unique data set—taxpayers data in 1427 was digitized and made available online—to show long-term trends of economic mobility.
  While it comes as little surprise that families pass on their wealth to their children, it’s still somewhat remarkable that these families were able to maintain their wealth through various sieges of Florence, Napoleon’s campaign in Italy, Benito Mussolini’s dictatorship, and two world wars.
  The study adds further evidence on how the rich remain rich.
  In England, researchers have previously demonstrated how a family’s status in England can persist for more than eight centuries, or more than 28 whole generations.
  It’s a trait shared by elite families in China, whose high status has persisted since the Mao years.
  Two British professors, Gregory Clark and Neil Cummins, have published a very interesting paper in 2014 , called “Surnames and Social Mobility in England, 1170-2012.”
  There is a surprising correlation and explanation of why China has had a similar outcome as England.
  Clark and Cummins take a long-term view of staying power of the elites, estimating the correlation between the status of families through multiple generations—that is, how much of the current elite status of a person can be explained by the status of his parent, and the parent of his parent, and so on.
  In fact, the paper mentioned above summarizes two chapters of a book they published earlier this year, The Son Also Rises: Surnames and the History of Social Mobility, Princeton University Press, 2014, available in Kindle.
  They studied the elite’s surnames’ behavior for eight countries and several centuries and found that in all of them the persistence of the elites was similar to modern England (which was similar to that of medieval England.)
  In addition to England, the studied countries were Sweden (supposedly a social democratic country with high social mobility), the United States (land of opportunity), India (admittedly rigid but ruled by socialists for several decades), Taiwan, Japan, Korea and Chile.
  To crown the list, they studied China under communism and compared it with previous stages of the almost interminable history of the country.
  Clark and Cummins note, a million mainland Chinese fled to Taiwan when the communists defeated the opposing Nationalists—most of them members of the elite.
  Under the communist agrarian reform in the late 1940s and early 1950s the land owned by the landlord class was seized and redistributed—amounting to 43% of all the land in China; in the process, 800,000 landlords were executed. Then, in the 1960s and 1970s, about 10 million of the relatives of former landlords, businessmen, and apparent bourgeois were killed during the Cultural Revolution.
  All in all, the communists killed about 60 million people on the excuse that they were bourgeois. This included teachers, intellectuals, professionals and anybody that sniffed at being a member of the previous elites.
  Large numbers of students in the urban regions were sent to the countryside and denied education—to facilitate the equalization of society.
  The authors ask whether Mao created a period of unusually rapid social mobility through the elimination, repression, and dispossession of the upper and middle classes?
  Surprisingly, he did not.
  The authors identified 13 surnames that appear with unusual frequency in the Qin examination system—the Chinese test to identify who will become a member of the highest elite in the country, the state bureaucracy.
  They selected them from more than 50,000 successful candidates (the most successful) in the Yuan, Ming, and Qin dynasties, starting in 221 BCE (we are talking China).
  These surnames are overrepresented in the modern imperial era and in modern Chinese elites—the high officials in the Nationalist government from 1912 to the triumph of the communists in 1949; professors at the ten most prestigious universities in the country in 2012; chairs of the boards of companies listed in 2006 as having assets of $1.5 million and above; and members of the (still communist) central government administration in 2010.
  Clark and Cummins made other estimations using different data sets.
  They came to the conclusion that we can be 95% confident that the true intergenerational correlation of status for Communist China lies in the range of 0.71-0.92. If you were a member of the elite in 1949, your immediate descendants had a probability of being members of the elite themselves of 71 to 92%. This is very close to capitalist England—and to all the other countries in the sample.
  https://qz.com/…/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-…/
  https://qz.com/…/heres-the-surprising-social-trait-that-th…/
  AMAZON.IN
  404 - Document Not Found
  404 - Document Not Found
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- Sunny Narang
  The Son Also Rises forcefully advances the idea that social position is determined by innate inherited abilities, an idea that is potentially pregnant with policy implications. “Once you have selected your mate,” Gregory Clark counsels, “your work is largely done. You can safely neglect your offspring, confident that the innate talents you secured for them will shine through regardless.”
  With this book Professor Clark (an economic historian with the University of California at Davis) dons the mantle of Francis Galton, who more than 100 years ago examined the transmission of status across the generations of 19th century England, and who is equally known for the statistical methods he developed to study the issue.
  And in the same way that careful readers have both admired and also questioned Galton’s work, so too they can legitimately admire The Son Also Rises as a work of scholarship, while at the same time wonder about it as an exercise in scholastic overreach.
  Social scientists have examined many different indicators of the intergenerational transmission of status. Clark draws conclusions from his and his collaborators’ tracking of the status associated with surnames. Galton used height, but earnings and income are particularly salient in recent research, and occupation, education, wealth, and other indices have also figured prominently. The intergenerational transmission of earnings, for example, varies across countries, with the level of economic development, with the degree of inequality, and in some cases over time as policies and institutions change. Other indicators have been found to show less variation across time and space. Whereas much of this research looks back only one, at best two, generations, Professor Clark makes a major contribution in tracing the transmission of status back centuries.
  Clark sometimes refers to this underlying characteristic as “social competence,” and at other times outright as “social genotype,” but ultimately what he means is “genes.” When measured correctly, social competence has a high degree of intergenerational transmission, with about three-quarters of any relative advantage or disadvantage being transmitted from parent to child. This equals or exceeds Galton’s estimate for height, and is as much as three times some estimates of the transmission of earnings between fathers and sons.
  But more important, according to Clark social mobility is an unchanging constant. It did not change with the arrival of free public education, the fall of nepotism in both the private and public sectors, economic growth, the expansion of the franchise in the 19th century, or even with the rise of the welfare state and redistributive taxation in the 20th. Social mobility is not related to any of these policies, and it is not tied to the level of inequality.
  This, he claims, is a law for all times and all places, from 14th century England, to 20th century China, from the America of the settlers to the America of Wall Street financiers.
  I shall call it “Clarke’s law”, my deliberate misspelling of the author’s name paying homage to his use of surnames and changes in surnames, and to the use of the letter e to represent influences other than family background—what Clark refers to as “luck”—in the mathematical representation of a son’s status as a linear function of his father’s status. Clarke’s law states that 50% to 80% of variation in status is predictable at birth. There has always been social mobility, albeit very slow, but it has little to do with society, institutions, or, by implication, public policy.
  To put these three modern cases in relief, Professor Clark offers surname evidence from Medieval England dating back to 1300. Elite names are identified as people associated with Oxford and Cambridge Universities, with wills proved in the highest court, with those probates associated with “Sir” or “Gentleman,” and with Members of Parliament. The Norman conquerors of England in 1066 recorded as property owners in the Domesday Book of 1086 are 16 times more likely than other names to be represented in Oxford or Cambridge in 1170 and 25% more likely now: a steady, but very slow, regression to the mean, suggesting a persistence rate of 0.90 from one generation to the next. The bottom line is that “medieval England had mobility rates similar to … those of modern United States and Sweden. In terms of social mobility, then, what did the Scientific Revolution, the Enlightenment, and the Industrial Revolution achieve? Very little.” (pages 74 and 75)
  This is scholarship at its best, but it also conveys a whiff of overreach that becomes manifest in the second part of the book, which sets out to test the law in diverse countries (India, China, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, and Chile) and also among particular groups (Protestants, Jews, Gypsies, Muslims and Copts).
  A longstanding family culture may foster capacities to, for example, teach children to speak with a socially approved accent, buffer them from the downsides of health risks and other threats to their human capital, or simply to instill an identity of entitlement. A surname is not just an index of genes but also of social pressures and entitlements that keep some down and keep others from falling down. In this way, what Clark terms luck may also persist across generations and it will also generate persistence in “social competence.”
  Ultimately, as interesting as The Son Also Rises is as an exercise in historical scholarship, it does not advance contemporary public policy. Galton even began an 1892 book (Hereditary Genius: An Inquiry into its Laws and Consequences) with the same focus as Clark’s beginning and ending of The Son Also Rises: “I propose to show … [Galton wrote on page 1] that a man’s natural abilities are derived by inheritance, under exactly the same limitations as are the form and physical features of the whole organic world. Consequently, … it would be quite practicable to produce a highly-gifted race of men by judicious marriages during several consecutive generations.” We have heard this advice many times over the decades, and it serves neither good public policy nor good parenting.
  https://milescorak.com/.../social-mobility-fixed-forever.../
  MILESCORAK.COM
  Social mobility, fixed forever? Gregory Clark’s The Son Also Rises is a book of scholarship, and of scholastic overreach
  Social mobility, fixed forever? Gregory Clark’s The Son Also Rises is a book of scholarship, and of scholastic overreach
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- Aparna Krishnan
  Thank you for a fantastic exposition. My own village validates all that you say.
  Each caste considers itself to ne the wisest and the best, and other others fools. Eashwaramm, Mala (SC) tells me the rains have failed because the Naidus (landowners) have stopped following the generosity that is the required dharma.
  In my village the Malas have their own priests for their own gods. The Gangamma destival is conducted by the washerman caste within the Mala. Technically lower, but raised to priesthood also.
  In the Reddy Hanuman temple a Mala from our village is the priest as his family has some connections with the incesption of the temple.
  The truth can only be found on the ground. If one has the humility and the intellectual honesty to put aside all book theories and learn from the people and their wisdom and their practices. Otherwise one cal lazily term them 'casteist, patriarchal, feudal' and lived in those boxed concepts, very far from the real truths.
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  3y
  Edited
- Sunny Narang
  Aparna
  simply in a rural society , India had less than 10% urban population in early 20th century , most skills and knowledge was passed down families which were extended clans and jatis . Anyone who has worked with artisan communities in India will realize that unless training with parents and grandparents , uncles and fellow community by the age of 8-10 you will never deeply learn the skills . So it makes absolute sense , even in an age when robotics and automation is killing all skills and employment possibilities that jatis knowledge is sustained in rural areas . All so-called artisan based NGO's and activists try this only despite their cultural or political leanings . The reality on the ground confounds all left and liberal. They are torn between a flat skill everyone equally world and the inability of modern technological society to do that . So they live in unrealizable utopian clouds and try annihilate all the existing systems . They are self destructive nihilists and irrelevant .
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Write a reply…
Rahul Banerjee
Mahidasa Aiteraya, credited with having authored the eponymous upanishad is said to have been born of a lower caste mother Itara and a brahmin father and is one of the major sages of the post rig vedic period. So it seems as if there was considerable mobility and flexibility in the caste system initially. It would be interesting to know when the abhorrent rigidity set in.
1
- Sunny Narang
  You can read Subhash Kak on this , among many others . " The Indian words that caste supposedly translates are jati,
  which means a large kin-community or descent-group, and varna , which
  implies a classification based on function. The word varna is from
  ancient Sanskritic theory and it has no real relevance; the word jati
  properly denotes what may be termed as a group bound by customs and
  traditions. The dynamics between the jatis has been influenced a great
  deal by historical and political factors. During the periods of
  economic growth, the jatis have been relatively open-ended; during
  periods of hardships the jatis have tended to draw in for the sake of
  survival. The word `caste' comes from the Portugese casta , a word
  that was meant to describe the jati system, but slowly it has come to
  have a much broader connotation.
  Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador to India, noted the existence of
  seven classes that were apparently jatis. The jatis were integrated
  into a cooperative system where each had a role and was cared for. One
  could consider it as a kind of a decentralized social security system
  where contracts were negotiated within the yajamana ( jajmani )
  framework. The dominant caste provided basic necessities to the other
  jati groups in exchange for services. The activities in the village
  could be viewed as a symbolic ritual where the yajamana was the
  patron. The yajamana system is thus based on the recognition by the
  dominant group that it is a part of a larger community and therefore it
  has an obligation to support the other communities.
  Rigveda 10.90 speaks of the Brahmana, Rajanya (Kshatriya), Vaishya, and
  Shudra as having sprung from the head, the arms, the thighs, and the
  feet of Purusha, the primal man. This mention of varnas has been taken
  to indicate that a caste system existed in the Vedic times. But it is
  repeatedly mentioned elsewhere that each human is in the image of the
  Purusha which would indicate that each human internalizes aspects of
  all the varnas. Many texts proclaim that one's nature alone, and not
  birth, determines to which varna one belongs. It is generally agreed
  that in the ancient Aryan society the varnas were functional groupings
  and not closed endogamous birth-descent groups. Basham (1967, p.148)
  suggests that the jati system in its modern form developed very late.
  The Chinese scholar Hsuan Tsang in the seventh century was not aware of
  it. As a response to historical events one might then credit the
  emergence of the modern ja ti system to the next fundamental change in
  the Indian polity that occurred with the invasions of the Turks.
  In its long history India has had diverse social and religious
  currents. It is only in the exception that the reality has conformed
  to the theory of the Dharma Shastras . The Vaishnavas emphatically
  define varna based on one's actions. Bhagavata Purana 7.11 proclaims
  clearly: "One's nature alone determines to which varna one belongs".
  The Tantrists claim that all those who accept the Kula (Tantric) dharma
  become Kauls (Mahanirvana Tantra 14.180-9).
  What is caste
  If one limits oneself to an analysis of the term jati, one would see
  that its implications have varied with history. Many scholars believe
  that the system of jati that we have now emerged only about a thousand
  years ago. If we accept that view then this emergence was perhaps a
  response to the catastrophic disruption to legal and political
  institutions caused by the Turkish invasions. With the destruction of
  the previous political order, different occupational communities
  created their own systems of justice and governance. In this
  situation, a local social structure developed which centered about the
  dominant community.
  Although jatis may pay lip service to the Brahmin as an intermediary to
  the gods when it comes to ritual, each caste considers itself to be the
  highest. If the Brahmins were to be accepted as the highest caste then
  other castes would have no hesitation in giving their daughters to the
  Brahmins. But in reality they do not. The Rajputs consider the
  Brahmins to be other-wordly or plain beggars; the traders consider the
  Brahmins to be impractical; and so on. In classical Sanskrit plays the
  fool is always a Brahmin. In other words, each different community has
  internalized a different outlook on life but these outlooks cannot be
  placed in any hierarchical ordering. The internalized images of the
  other must, by its very nature, be a gross simplification and it will
  never conform exactly to reality." http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/caste3
  Like
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  3y
- Sunny Narang
  Hakka was the first ruler of the famous kingdom of Vijayanagar, and Bukka, his
  brother, the second ruler. They opposed the mighty Sultan of Delhi and brought unity and freedom to south India. They were great not only as warriors but also as rulers. They belong to " KURUBA (shepherd) " caste http://kurubashakkabukka.blogspot.in/.../kurubas-hakka...
  KURUBASHAKKABUKKA.BLOGSPOT.COM
  KURUBA'S HAKKA BUKKA
  KURUBA'S HAKKA BUKKA
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- Sunny Narang
  Meena a ST caste, which considers itself the original rulers of Rajasthan "Originally Meenas were a ruling tribe, and were ruler of Matsya,i.e., Rajasthan or Matsya Union but their slow downfall began with the assimilation with Scythian and was completed when the British government declared them a "Criminal Tribe". This very action was taken to support their alliance with Rajput kingdom then in Rajasthan, and Meenas were still in war with Rajputs, carrying out guerrilla attacks to retain their lost kingdoms." http://meenawiki.com/index.php?title=Meenas&setlang=hi
  MEENAWIKI.COM
  Meenas - meenawiki
  Meenas - meenawiki
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- Sunny Narang
  Mahapadma Nanda a barber by caste established The Nanda Dynasty or Nanda Empire in the territory of Magadha.Nanda Empire was one of the famous Ancient Indian Dynasties. It ruled in India at the time of 4th and 5th century BC. During the peak of its glory, the Nanda Dynasty had its stretch from Punjab to the west to Bengal to the east, and in the distant south upto the Vindhya Mountain Range. http://dalitvision.blogspot.in/.../mahapadma-nanda-first...
  DALITVISION.BLOGSPOT.COM
  Mahapadma Nanda - The first Shudra king of Magadha
  Mahapadma Nanda - The first Shudra king of Magadha
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- Sunny Narang
  According to Ambedkar during the Vedic period there were Shudra kings and both Brahmins and Kshatriyas saw no humiliation in serving them. He gives the example of king Sudas who had a Brahmin Vasishta officiating as a priest, followed by a Kshatriya Vi…
  See More
  ITHIHAS.WORDPRESS.COM
  Caste System in India- A Critical Analysis
  Caste System in India- A Critical Analysis
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- Rahul Banerjee
  The first reply i read earlier when you posted it. I am not questioning the complexity of the history of caste and its definition. What i am wondering is how rigidity and untouchability came to dominate. Is there any research on that. What you are citing is about the flexibility of the caste system which does not explain how it became rigid and oppressive towards the untouchables.
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- Sunny Narang
  We have had hundreds of invasions from Central Asia , pre Islam too, and many so called castes in North India are mixed race , Jats , Rajputs , Gurjars , Yadavas . No one can claim purity of any kind . "Professor B. S. Dhillon states that Jat people are mainly of Indo-Scythian lineage with composite mixing of Sarmatians, Goths & Jutes in History and study of the Jats. Historian James Tod agreed in considering the Jat people to be of Indo-Scythian Stock.[61] Moreover, Sir Alexander Cunningham, Former Director-General of the Archeological Survey of India, considered the Jat people to be the Xanthii (a Scythian tribe) of Scythian stock who he considered very likely called the Zaths (Jats) of early Arab writers.[62] He stated "their name is found in Northern India from the beginning of the Christian era." These people were considered by early Arab writers to have descended from Meds and Zaths.[63][64] Sir Cunningham believes they "were in full possession of the valley of the Indus towards the end of the seventh century.[65] The Kipling Society has certified and advocated that, "The Rajputs proper were of mixed origin – pre-Muslim invaders such as Scythians, Bactrians, Parthians, Hunas and Gurjaras who came in before, say, the end of the 7th century." https://www.jatland.com/home/Jats
  JATLAND.COM
  Jats - Jatland Wiki
  Jats - Jatland Wiki
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Sunny Narang
You can see the Vijayanagar , the Kakatiyas in middle ages were from so called Sudra castes . So till British times when they created permanent settlements made deals with last ruling royalties and created Brahmin zamindari in Bengal and Madras presidency it would be all fluid
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Any evidence of this fluidity in the immediate pre-british era? What i find intriguing is the deep rigidity of the caste system and the practice of untouchability which precedes the british era. How did this emerge and spread across the indian subcontinent irrespective of religion.
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- Sunny Narang
  I have posted above examples the Vijayanagara Kings were herders and that was when the Portuguese arrived . There are enough local histories in every part of India to show the fluidity of various jati royalties from what is knows as ST , SC and OBC now . As for untouchability in certain professions , there will be many reasons . There are local caste narratives everywhere on how that came to be , in UP the increased urbanization under Mughals led to more people needed for sewage disposal , as urban areas need such services , not rural areas so numbers of those jatis increased . Between the Hindutva justification of everything and the Left denial of everything we have no real local narratives .
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- Rahul Banerjee
  not only those involved in sanitation but also castes involved in leatherwork and farming like the Mahars were deemed untouchable and these were more in the rural areas than in the urban areas prompting ambedkar to say that the Mahars should migrate to urban areas to escape the rigidity and untouchability in villages. So if up to the 15th century AD there was flexibility, what were the triggers that led to rigidity later is the question.
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- Aparna Krishnan
  "Between the Hindutva justification of everything and the Left denial of everything we have no real local narratives ."
  Those local narratives are what will show us the way. But the narrator needs to have the humility and intellectual integrity to divest himself of all preconceived notion and LEARN from the people. That is not a very common ability. But there is no other way.
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- Sunny Narang
  The Sikh Khalsa were majority Jat farmers only but all castes were included in 1699 . "The episode of sis-bhet, i.e. offering of the heads was recorded by Bhai Kuir Singh in his Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (1751) followed by Bhai Sukkha Singh, Bhai Santokh Singh, and others. Earlier chronicles such as the Sri Gur Sobha, and the Bansavalinama do not narrate it in such detail. Ratan Singh Bhangu, Prachin Panth Prakash, simply says that “five Sikhs were selected one each from five different castes.” From what is known about the lives of those five Sikhs, each of them had received instruction at the hands of Guru Gobind Singh, was a devoted disciple and had been in residence at Anandpur long enough to have been affected by its ambience of faith and sacrifice. It was a coincidence that they belonged to different castes and to different parts of India. " http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Panj_Piare
  SIKHIWIKI.ORG
  Panj Piare - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
  Panj Piare - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.
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- Sunny Narang
  True
  Aparna
  for that humility you first need stop being a patronising dumbo from a urban English speaking background and start listening to local narratives without trying a grand theory on which you can get a political ideology or a US university grant
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- Rahul Banerjee
  the issue of untouchability does not find much mention in earlier recorded history yet when Ambedkar objected to it and brought it out into the open, it became clear that it was a widespread phenomenon and so deeply entrenched across India that it must have had a long history.
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- Sunny Narang
  Ambedkar had his own hierarchy "The Eurocentric model of economic progress ranked societies and cultures on the basis of modes of production. Fanned by social evolutionists, those societies that appeared to be lagging behind on the civilizational ladder were often subjected to political and social exclusion. To quote Ambedkar from his deposition to the Simon commission in 1929, “The aboriginal tribes have not as yet developed a political sense to make the best use of their political opportunities and they may easily become mere instruments in the hands of either of a majority or a minority and thereby disturb the balance without doing any good to themselves.” [4]
  By looking at the tribes as distinct from castes, Ambedkar, like many others before him, drives a wedge between the “civilized” and the “uncivilized”. Such an approach exposed a vast body of people to pacification campaigns even though they culturally and religiously share deep affiliations with the settled castes." https://www.forwardpress.in/.../ambedkar-on-adivasis-and.../
  FORWARDPRESS.IN
  Ambedkar on Adivasis and Gandhi on Dalits
  Ambedkar on Adivasis and Gandhi on Dalits
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- Sunny Narang
  Simply Mahars were the top rung of the lower castes in Maharashtra , while similarly other such Jatis have been aspiring to be the new elites everywhere and form a majority of the SC or ST reservation . It is a simple case of social mobility while using the "peoples" just like French Revolution onwards . Rising new elites have manipulated politics to become the New Class as Djilas says . Earlier they were kingdoms with fluid state boundaries , now its class and caste politics with fluid political boundaries and fixed states.
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- Sunny Narang
  In Maharashtra there are 59 scheduled castes and each Scheduled Caste has its sub castes. For non Mahar castes, to be frank, Dr. Ambedkar is not their main agent for political socialization. Most of them are with the Congress party and its ideology. Their population is numerically small and none of them is militant. There is a distinct rivalry between the Mahars and the other Scheduled Castes. There are efforts to create a united front of all, but have achieved very little." http://www.freepatentsonline.com/.../India.../305082895.html
  FREEPATENTSONLINE.COM
  Amazing development of scheduled castes in Maharashtra.
  Amazing development of scheduled castes in Maharashtra.
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- Rahul Banerjee
  the complexity of the caste system is well documented. Ambedkar said a lot of things which are open to debate but the importance of his first personal and then community wide fight against untouchability cant be minimised because of that.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  I am sorry to interject in an emotionally charged dialogue. But the untouchability in a very rigid form has been recorded in FaXian's travelogues in 400AD and how Buddhism provided an escape. I am sure there were local resistances as well throughout history. But it cannot be just a later creation.
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Given its widespread prevalence one would expect it to have a long history. Are there any other historical records of untouchability?
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Depending on what you would consider history. Buddhist stories have many references. Remember the famous poem Chandalika by Tagore.
  https://medium.com/.../celebrating-dalit-history-matangi...
  MEDIUM.COM
  Celebrating Dalit History: Matangi, the Dalit Nun from Buddhist Scriptures
  Celebrating Dalit History: Matangi, the Dalit Nun from Buddhist Scriptures
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- Rahul Banerjee
  The dating of manusmriti is uncertain but there definitely was untouchability in its time because the rules specified for the chandals in it clearly categorise them as untouchable outcastes.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  I fully respect the thinking that this evil can be combatted through strength within one's tradition. However producing a false counter narrative that the source of this evil is from outside does not help anyone's cause.
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- Sunny Narang
  No one has said that the "untouchability" was from outside , but it's nature and intensity differed from geography to geography , time to time . In most human societies there are groups that health with "dirty" work of sewage or dead animals . Human and Geographical segregation in Universal and every society has to find its own ways . Till date a Jain building society may not allow any meat eater within itself . Black or Muslim neighbourhoods in EU or US are separate from upper class white ones . There is nothing unique about social hierarchy or untouchability in India . Or the Jati vyavastha . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untouchability
  EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
  Untouchability - Wikipedia
  Untouchability - Wikipedia
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- Sunny Narang
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_apartheid
  EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
  Social apartheid - Wikipedia
  Social apartheid - Wikipedia
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- Sunny Narang
  Segregation, as a broad concept, has appeared in all parts of the world where people exist—in different contexts and times it takes on different forms, shaped by the physical and human environments.[2] The spatial concentration of population groups is not a new phenomenon. Since societies began to form there have been segregated inhabitants. Either segregated purposefully by force, or gradually over time, segregation was based on socio-economic, religious, educational, linguistic or ethnic grounds. Some groups choose to be segregated to strengthen social identity.[3][4]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_segregation
  EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
  Geographical segregation - Wikipedia
  Geographical segregation - Wikipedia
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- Sunny Narang
  And it keeps coming back "Residential segregation is also on the rise, and we view the growing trend for separate entrances to housing developments for private and social tenants as a particularly disquieting – almost Dickensian – development. "https://www.google.co.in/.../social-segregation-rising...
  NEWSTATESMAN.COM
  Social segregation is rising - what's to be done about it?
  Social segregation is rising - what's to be done about it?
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- Sunny Narang
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/.../Racial_segregation_in_the...
  EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
  Racial segregation in the United States - Wikipedia
  Racial segregation in the United States - Wikipedia
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Yes. No one is debating these. And everyone is fighting it in their own ways. But why this sudden need (may be not by you) to not acknowledge that the refusal to share food and water with a person and the concept that you can get impure simply by touch was an unique creation in India that predated all known "invaders" because it was firmly entrenched by the time of Buddha at least. If you refuse to acknowledge that the problem arose from within us and not from any invaders the less is the chance is to correct it from within.
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- Sunny Narang
  Arindam please show me in any post on this thread where I have said this ? You are not reading what is being said but putting in what you want to read into it . Untouchability has risen in many societies across the planet including India . And will continue to emerge in new ways .
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- Sunny Narang
  Burakumin (部落民, "hamlet people"/"village people", "those who live in hamlets/villages") is an outcaste group at the bottom of the Japanese social order that has historically been the victim of severe discrimination and ostracism. They were originally members of outcast communities in the Japanese feudal era, composed of those with occupations considered impure or tainted by death (such as executioners, undertakers, workers in slaughterhouses, butchers or tanners), which have severe social stigmas of kegare (穢れ or "defilement") attached to them. Traditionally, the Burakumin lived in their own communities, hamlets or ghettos.
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- Sunny Narang
  Cagots were shunned and hated. While restrictions varied by time and place, they were typically required to live in separate quarters in towns, called cagoteries, which were often on the far outskirts of the villages. Cagots were excluded from all political and social rights. They were not allowed to marry non-Cagots, enter taverns, hold cabarets, use public fountains, sell food or wine, touch food in the market, work with livestock, or enter the mill.[2] They were allowed to enter a church only by a special door, and during the service, a rail separated them from the other worshippers. Either they were altogether forbidden to partake of the sacrament, or the Eucharist was given to them on the end of a wooden spoon, while a holy water stoup was reserved for their exclusive use. They were compelled to wear a distinctive dress, to which, in some places, was attached the foot of a goose or duck (whence they were sometimes called "Canards"). So pestilential was their touch considered that it was a crime for them to walk the common road barefooted or to drink from the same cup as non-Cagots. The Cagots were often restricted to the trades of carpenter, butcher, and rope-maker.[3][4]
  The Cagots were not an ethnic group, nor a religious group. They spoke the same language as the people in an area and generally kept the same religion as well. Their only distinguishing feature was their descent from families identified as Cagots. Few consistent reasons were given as to why they should be hated; accusations varied from Cagots being cretins, lepers, heretics, cannibals, to simply being intrinsically evil. The Cagots did have a culture of their own, but very little of it was written down or preserved; as a result, almost everything that is known about them relates to their persecution.[5] Their cruel treatment lasted through the Middle Ages, Renaissance, and Industrial Revolution, with the prejudice fading only in the 19th and 20th centuries.
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- Aparna Krishnan
  This is a thread i am learning a lot of details from. Thanks.
  Komakkambedu Himakiran
  , fyi, in case you have missed this thread.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Sorry. The original question from Rahul was when the caste system got so rigid in India that the concept of untouchability took hold? Because neither is it a part of Vedas nor a part of Gita. What I am saying is that we need to acknowledge that we ourselves created this not muslims or british.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Cagots example is appreciated. It sheds light on how the situation may have evolved in ancient India.
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- Sunny Narang
  Sure all societies had a caste system , now its by ethnic , class , race . India had its own , the Turks and British their own . South Africa segregation was not imagined by us , neither was the Jazia . So the various invaders understanding of hierarchy created and changed old Jatis , but whether Jatis were rigid formulations with their status permanently formed is the real question. Till the coming of British the social mobility of communities , including so called Sudras becoming Royalty was common . Even under Islamic invasions the fluidity remained . It is a very complex system of which there are thousands of local variations , including marital relations between what we consider ST now and Rajputs . We in fact have few inscriptions to understand royal histories in temples or coins , forget getting data on social structure , its Gini coefficient of inequality et al. Till the First World War we lived only in Empires , this whole delusion of democratic equality is less than a 60 year story after so called freedom movements .
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- Sunny Narang
  For me we need to acknowledge that creation of social stratification and various extreme forms including slavery , are enduring forms.
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- Sunny Narang
  In Delhi , the Bangladeshi immigrants who are illegal are now exploited by the SC community that looks after the Municipal Government Waste Dhalaos . The immigrants collect garbage for free from houses while the SC mafia that controls the collection bins just allows them the right to garbage segregation .
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- Arindam Ghosh
  This is not enduring. This is where I differ. The future of humanity is abolition of all prejudices:caste and class. No matter what has happened in the past.
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- Sunny Narang
  That is your faith and I welcome it , like a thousand other faiths on the planet . May God be with you .
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- Arindam Ghosh
  O CHILDREN OF MEN! Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.
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- Sunny Narang
  Well now Deep Ecologists consider all living beings and Nature included in the rights
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- Sunny Narang
  Lawyers from California to New York are fighting to gain legal rights for chimpanzees and killer whales, and lawmakers are ending the era of keeping these intelligent animals in captivity. In Hawaii and India, judges have recognized that endangered species ― from birds to lions ― have the legal right to exist. Around the world, more and more laws are being passed recognizing that ecosystems ― rivers, forests, mountains, and more ― have legally enforceable rights. And if nature has rights, then humans have responsibilities.
  In The Rights of Nature, noted environmental lawyer David Boyd tells this remarkable story, which is, at its heart, one of humans as a species finally growing up. Read this book and your world view will be altered forever. https://www.amazon.com/Rights-Nature-Legal.../dp/1770412395
  AMAZON.COM
  The Rights of Nature: A Legal Revolution That Could Save the World
  The Rights of Nature: A Legal Revolution That Could Save the World
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Yes and I do welcome them
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Sunny Narang
In short social hierarchy and segregation with keep emerging , the more vicious elements of untouchability can be legally and socially mandated but not the conscious social and cultural segregation . No one can force any group to accept any other group.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
1) all the narratives discussed here need to be seen in their local context. There was never one geopolitical entity that established one social order across the land.
2) Megasthenes documents 7 classes based on occupation. Around the same time, Sangam literature lists 4 groups based on landscape (Thinais) and one grouping of vagabonds.
3) There are mentions of more groups mostly by location or occupation. For e.g. Vadugars who came from the North and raided livestock. Vadugar is also the name for Telugus in Tamil.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
Now coming to the rigidity of the caste structure and when it was established. Manu Smriti is where it was documented, based on various sources that’s 400-600AD. Now where was this applied?
Probably in small pockets where the followers of the Vedic religion had access to political power, it may be it was followed within a few social groups rather than entire society as such.
This time period marks the end of the Buddhist and Jain (Samanam in Tamil) period in India and is referred as the dark ages for us. Kalabhras ruled most of the south and it’s not sure what religion they followed.
Then Bhakti period happened 600-900AD.
Post that, it was Raja Raja Chola who invited the followers of Vedic religion to come and settle in the south and engage in religious activity. He made many grants to them, villages called Chaturvedi Mangalams.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
Between this period and the rule of Madurai Nayaks when many temples were taken over by Vedic Brahmins replacing the local priests, a lot of churn happened in the social order here as got solidified.
So 1000-1700AD.
If you look at these times, there were many a reformer here. Basavanna, Ramanujar are well known examples.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
British exploited this system well. Their intervention in the Malabar region where the land produce was split three ways between land owning Namboodiris, managing Nairs and Moplah peasants was skewed and only 1/6th was given to the peasants after British collusion with the Namboothiris. This led to the Moplah rebellion.
But then, we also have the example of Travancore which was never ruled by any invader so to speak, create one of the worst oppressive and regressive society for the ones born into “lower” castes of Ezhavas, Saanars etc. Travancore is one example enough for rejecting the caste system. Vivekananda called it a mental asylum.
The social strictures they had were pure evil and the work of perverted minds.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
In a way we can say, political stability and economic prowess helped breed caste oppression.
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- Sunny Narang
  In the North from what I can see since invasion of Greeks onwards besides a small time of Gupta Empire in 250 to 500 CE we were always in turmoil . Always social churning . Islam came to Sind as early as 9th century and covered most of North India by 13th century . So for last 500 to 1200 years we have not had any Manu following Kingdom in North depending on region. The tax and land laws are all in Persian script . So without the involvement of Turks no social system would have sustained . The so called untouchables were not converted , even in Pakistan till now as every society needs outcastes to do the crap work .
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- Sunny Narang
  https://scroll.in/.../in-pakistan-dalits-dreams-have...
  SCROLL.IN
  In Pakistan, Dalits' dreams have turned into a nightmare
  In Pakistan, Dalits' dreams have turned into a nightmare
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Yes too much churn in the North till the Sultanates time.
  Was Islamic law applicable to all sections of society? Also religion didn’t matter for caste social order. We have hierarchy in Islam and Christianity too.
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- Sunny Narang
  Very strong Jazia rules , so everyone had to pay religious tax for being a Hindu . I will share essays with you. It was a highly exploitative system , so conversion could happen.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  What I want to know is, paying Jaziya insulated the Hindus from social interference? Were they allowed to just be? Again was this universal or depended on the personal whims of the ruler?
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- Sunny Narang
  Hima the rules changed all the time , and the Turko Afghans were more like mercenaries with very few building any real public assets till the Mughals came in 1526 which was actually after the Portuguese came in 1498. The Delhi Sultanate was always in fighting . New Jatis came up , old ones vanished . Most artisan Jatis converted to supply to the nobility which was almost majority Muslim. You guys down south cannot imagine the social disruption when there are no collective institutions left like Temples . There was essentially no Hindu cultural hegemony of any kind left . And Rajasthan would have different trajectories as would Uttarakhand . That is my point India has a 1000 plus social, cultural , political histories and anyone creating overwhelming categories is talking absolute crap.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Yes political stability breeds entrenched systems.
  No single rule can define the sub continent in any sphere.
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- Sunny Narang
  "The death of Ghuri within fourteen years of the victory at Tarain was a great blow to the rising Muslim power in India, but his task had been nearly accomplished. Nearly all of northern India was under Muslim rule, and in Aibak, Iltutmish, Nasir-ud-din Qabacha, and Muhammad bin Bakhtiyar Khalji, he left a group of capable officers who could complete his task. Many of them, including Aibak and Iltutmish, who later became rulers of India, were slaves, a reminder of the important place well-trained and loyal slaves had in the early Muslim dynasties. Brought from all over Central Asia, often members of ruling families that had been defeated, they provided generals and [[41]] governors who were often more trustworthy than sons or other relatives. Other factors also contributed to Muslim success. They were always on the offensive and had the advantage of greater initiative and selectivity. Fighting hundreds of miles away from their homes, they had to fight desperately, as they had no easy means of escape. Religious ardor must also have acted as a spur to their fighting qualities. The soldiers were not confined to one class, as was generally the case with Indian armies, but contained picked and zealous soldiers from all classes and even different ethnic groups, such as the Turks, Tajiks, Khaljis, and Afghans.
  While these factors were responsible for the speedy conquest of northern India, the consolidation of Muslim rule owed not a little to another event which was a tragedy for the Muslim countries of central and western Asia. This was the Mongol invasion, which drove [[42]] large numbers of refugees, amongst whom were princes, chiefs, soldiers, scholars, and saints, to Muslim India. Thus a vast reservoir of manpower became available to the new government at Delhi, and these people, having suffered so much, did not spare themselves in making India a "Citadel of Islam." Yildiz, the ruler of Ghazni, laid claim as Muhammad Ghuri's successor to suzerainty over all the latter's Indian conquests. The Hindu chiefs had by now recovered from the stunning effects of Muslim victories and were winning back many of the strongholds originally conquered by the Muslims. Kalinjar had been recovered as early as 1206, and in course of time Jalor, Ranthambhor, Gwalior, and even Badaun, where Iltutmish held his last post before accession to the throne, were lost to the Muslims. In Oudh and the Doab the situation was even worse, and Minhaj-us-Siraj speaks of a Hindu chief named Bartu "beneath whose sword above a hundred and twenty thousand Musalmans had attained martyrdom."/1/
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- Sunny Narang
  The Mongol invasion, the greatest blow which the Muslim world ever suffered, is the dividing point of Islamic history. The modern evaluation of the Mongol advance as a catastrophe for Islam was shared by contemporaries, one of whom, the historian Ibn-ul-Athir, called it, "the death blow of Islam and the Muslims." Beginning in 1219 with Chingiz Khan's invasion of Transoxiana, it brought destruction to large cultivated areas, ruin to libraries and madrasas, and endless slaughter to men, women, and children. It culminated in the sack of Baghdad, and the end of the Abbasid caliphate at the hands of Hulagu Khan in 1258. A quotation from E. G. Browne summarizes the extent of the catastrophe: "In its suddenness, its devastating destruction, its appalling ferocity, its passionless and purposeless cruelty, its irresistible though short-lived violence, this outburst of savage nomads hitherto hardly known by name even to their neighbors, resembles rather some brute cataclysm of the blind forces of nature than a phenomenon of human history. The details of massacre, outrage, spoliation, and destruction wrought by these hateful hordes of barbarians who, in the space of a few years, swept the world from Japan to Germany would … be incredible were they not confirmed from so many different quarters."/2/ That India was spared the full force of invasion can be attributed in large part to the vigilance and resourcefulness of the Delhi sultans.
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- Sunny Narang
  One of the crucial problems facing Iltutmish was the position of Hindus in a Muslim state. By this time Muslim law had been codified, and the freedom of action enjoyed by Muhammad ibn Qasim five centuries earlier in Sind was denied him. Three out of four schools of Islamic law favored the extermination of all idolators, but the practice, initiated by Muhammad ibn Qasim and maintained by the Ghaznavids, of treating idolatrous Hindus at least as privileged zimmis proved more powerful. When the ulama urged Iltutmish to give effect to the opinion of the majority of the founders of Islamic schools of law, he convened a conference and called upon his wazir, Nizam-ul Mulk Junaidi, to explain the position. The wazir argued that since India had only recently been conquered, and since the Muslims were fewer in number than the Hindus, it would not be wise to attempt a course of action that might lead to disturbances. This argument was accepted, and the status quo was maintained. The possibility of imposing the viewpoint of the majority Islamic law was never again raised in the form urged by the ulama. The course adopted was in consonance with fourth school of law (Hanafi), which has been accepted by the vast majority of Indian Muslims./6/
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- Sunny Narang
  Delhi was founded in the tenth century, but before the Muslim occupation it was not a large city, ranking below Ajmer in the Chauhan kingdom. Since it could not meet the requirements of the large population attracted by the seat of the new government, Iltutmish had to provide it with proper amenities and adorn it as the imperial capital. He built or completed the Qutb Minar, greatly extended the Quwwat-ul-Islam Mosque, giving it a distinctly Islamic look, and constructed a large water reservoir (Hauz-i-Shamsi) to meet the needs of Delhi citizens. The educational needs of the people were also looked after, for the Madrasa-i-Nasiri, of which the historian Minhaj-us-Siraj was the head at one time, was built in his reign./7/
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- Sunny Narang
  http://www.columbia.edu/.../00islamlinks/ikram/part1_03.html
  COLUMBIA.EDU
  part1_03
  part1_03
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- Rahul Banerjee
  The point is to identify a problem and seek its solution and for that it is necessary to find out the causes of its persistence over a long time. Caste system, however defined, is not the problem per se but social oppression, especially untouchability, definitely is. That such social oppression is a universal phenomenon does not in any way erase its problematical nature for us here in india. Its not a question of denigrating Hinduism from a modern perspective but solving a problem that has existed in its virulent pan india form for over a thousand years at least if not more.
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- Sunny Narang
  The only option will be another cultural , social transformation that is rooted like the Basava , Sikh, Bhakti traditions in dignity and human infinity across caste and class . And appropriate tools to dignify the dirty and dangerous occupations . In Delhi now it is not the SC who do the sewage and garbage but Bangladeshi immigrants and the Govt. employed SC manage them through barter contracts , of letting them segregate garbage .
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- Sunny Narang
  The way to give such jobs dignity is to automate and mechanize as much as possible and pay very good wages . The "Dirty Jobs" in our kind of society should be premium with " Dirty Bonus' . "Become a ‘Sewage Monkey’ and earn around £45,000 a year for flushing the sewage systems. This is a highly lucrative job, yet so overlooked by people when looking for a different career.
  When Leicester Square in London was clogged in 2010, there was approximately 10000 tonnes of putrid fluid that blocked up the sewage works.
  Although it may seem a least desirable job, it is among the best paid with continuous contracts to ensure maximum working time. London is a lucrative city that carries out works for around 55,000 sewage blockages and therefore work is never ending." https://www.how2become.com/.../good-paying-jobs-that.../
  HOW2BECOME.COM
  Good Paying Jobs That Nobody Wants
  Good Paying Jobs That Nobody Wants
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- Sunny Narang
  Statistics show that waste collection is one of the most dangerous jobs, at times even more dangerous than police work, but consistently less dangerous than commercial fishing and ranch and farm work. On-the-job hazards include broken glass; medical waste such as syringes; caustic chemicals; falling objects from overloaded containers; diseases that may accompany solid waste; asbestos; dog attacks and pests; inhaling dust, smoke, and fumes; inclement weather, traffic accidents, and odors so foul that they can make one physically sick. But worldwide corporations are taking over the garbage segregation and that is ending the informal employment of the lowest immigrants to the city . This is the Catch 22 . If one automates it too much it end the livelihood of many people . To ask for good jobs for all is just theory , it happens nowhere now . So many new solutions have to be thought about . " The Zabbaleen (Egyptian Arabic: زبالين‎ Zabbalīn, IPA: [zæbbæˈliːn]) is a word which literally means "garbage people" in Egyptian Arabic.[2] The contemporary use of the word in Egyptian Arabic is to mean "garbage collectors". In cultural contexts, the word refers to teenagers and adults who have served as Cairo's informal garbage collectors since approximately the 1940s. The Zabbaleen (singular: زبال Zabbāl, [zæbˈbæːl]) are also known as Zarraba (singular: Zarrab), which means "pig-pen operators."[2] The word Zabbalīn came from the Egyptian Arabic word zebāla ([zeˈbæːlæ], زبالة) which means "garbage". Their existence and way of life has come under threat after the Cairo municipal authorities’ decision in 2003 to award annual contracts of $50 million to three multinational garbage disposal companies." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabbaleen
  EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
  Zabbaleen - Wikipedia
  Zabbaleen - Wikipedia
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- Arindam Ghosh
  BTW the view of Mongols as barbarians is another caricature. Sorry I am out of time. But there are many texts on how important their contribution is to the world culture.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
Society will always keep changing and morphing. It’s centralisation of anything, be it social or economical or political, that’s dangerous to us.
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
Like Sunny mentioned, many a kingdom or dynasty was started by people from supposedly lower castes. But this is more of an ode to the might of the sword rather than social order.
Shivaji and his coronation story is a good example. Your Punjabi/Hindustani proverb of “Laathi and Bains” is universal!
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Sunny Narang
Aparna
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Komakkambedu Himakiran
here is a very simple summing up , it shows the perpetual volatility in creation of Indian elites and how almost no one ruled more than 300 years and the social mobility of Jatis and geographical mobility of Brahmins , Jains , Buddhists influencing new emerging powers across the subcontinent . There was always war of the mind, soul and land between various groups. Then Islam both Shia and Sunni , various Central Asian mercenaries and European powers joing the game . Simply India has always been volatile , will always be volatile , as I say , if you want Peace , leave India " As the first millennium of the Common Era gave way to the second, the contours of political geography shifted substantially. In Sri Lanka, virtually the whole population shifted to the coast. In the peninsula, after Chola imperial expansion reached its limit, the weight of dynastic power shifted from the coast into the interior uplands, where warrior nomads and pastoralists were transformed over centuries into warrior-peasant alliances on farming frontiers. New centres of dynastic power arose in Karnataka, Andhra, and Maharashtra, where local warriors faced enemies who galloped along routes across Malwa, Rajasthan, Afghanistan, and Central Asia. Late medieval militarism in the Deccan -- based in Khandesh, Berar, Maharashtra, Andhra, and Karnataka -- had its social origins on the land with ancient histories. Dynasties emerged from the mobilization of warriors inside and around farming communities where peasants struggled with but also came from pastoral, hunting, and mountain societies. Earlier dynasties were more pastoral; and later dynasties, more agrarian: standing to fight became part of farming. In the Deccan, where drought was common, running off to war in the hot dry season came naturally. All the dominant agrarian castes that came into being in the medieval Deccan included both soldiers and field cultivators.
By contrast, in Rajasthan, a single dominant warrior group evolved, called Rajput (from Rajaputra -- sons of kings), who rarely engaged in farming, even to supervise farm labour, because farming was literally beneath them; farming was for their peasant subjects. In the ninth century, separate clans of Rajput Cahamanas (Chauhans), Paramaras (Pawars), Guhilas (Sisodias), and Caulukyas (Solankis) were splitting off from sprawling Gurjara Pratihara clans, whose distant ancestors were pastoralists and who formed an imperial medieval dynasty that spread across Rajasthan, Malwa, and the Ganga basin. In later centuries, separate Rajput lineages spread out across the plains and adjacent mountains, settling in fortresses, and ruling over peasants. Rajput nobles endowed temples and employed Brahmans, but their devotion to war, clan, and supremacy over peasants were the true measures of Rajput dharma. They attracted allies and imitators as they made themselves a model of rajadharma, ideal Kshatriyas.
Rajput cultural influence spread widely among allies, competitors, and imitators. The genealogies that constituted the valorous record of a Rajput ancestry became coveted assets among aspiring rulers who multiplied east of Rajasthan until, in the eighteenth century, a cultural Rajputisation of tribal kingdoms occurred across the mountains of central and eastern India. Rajput supremacy also stimulated the rise of warrior Jat peasant clans in the western frontiers of old Bharat -- in Rajasthan, the western Ganga basin, and Punjab -- where Rajputs and Jats built fortified villages and hilltop forts, sometime allied with one another, but most often at odds.
The third population of warriors that propelled the medieval transition in South Asia consisted of huge clans of Turk, Afghan, and Mongol horse nomads, who dominated warrior society in the uplands northwest of the Indus, Punjab, and Rajasthan, in Afghanistan, Persia, and Central Asia. They became the dominant military force in the lowlands, after the tenth century, when Paramaras held Malwa; Cahamanas fought for northern Rajasthan and routes across the Indo-Gangetic watershed; Hindu Shahis fought Rajputs from their base in Punjab; and Sultan Mahmud assumed power in Ghazni, in Afghanistan.
Mahmud of Ghazni’s father, Sabuktigin, fought Hindu Shahis in Punjab to acquire tribute to support his wars in Afghanistan and Persia. A deeply clannish Turk leader, he professed Islam -- as Timur would do, centuries later -- to make strategic alliances. Mahmud succeeded his father in 997 and extended his patrimonial ambition in all directions. He conquered Afghanistan and Persia, he obtained the title Yamin al-Daula (Right Hand of the State) from the Caliph, and he took tribute from local rulers in seventeen raids across the Indus basin. Mahmud defeated Hindu Sahis in 1018; then he sacked Mathura and Kanyakubja; and, in 1026, he sacked the pilgrimage centre of Somanatha, on the coast of the Saurashtra peninsula in Gujarat. His deeds became literally legendary. They were memorialised, often fancifully, by generations of admirers and detractors who bestowed upon him everlasting fame for his pillage, plunder, and murder of heretics and infidels, including Muslims and non-Muslims. He became symbolic in cultural politics. In the fourteenth century, two Sunni authors, Barani and Isami -- writing in Delhi and in the Deccan Bahmani kingdom, respectively -- praised Mahmud as an ideal Muslim ruler because he persecuted rival Muslim sects of Shias and Ismailis, as well as non-believers."
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Vicious Mongol attacks on cities and towns across southern Eurasia launched centuries of migration into India. Warriors, scholars, mystics, merchants, artists, artisans, peasants, and workers followed ancient trade routes and new opportunities that opened up in the new domains of Indian sultans. Migrants walked and rode down the Hindu Kush; they traveled from town to town, across Punjab, down the Ganga basin, into Bengal, down the Indus into Sind and Gujarat, across the Vindhyas, into the Deccan, and down the coast. From Bengal and other sites along the coast, some continued overseas. They moved and resettled to find work, education, patronage, influence, adventure, and better living. They traveled these routes for five centuries, never in large numbers compared to the resident population; but as time went by, new-comers settled more often where others had settled before; and their accumulation, natural increase, and local influence changed societies all across South Asia forever. This was one of the world’s most significant long-term migratory patterns; and it not only carried people and wealth into South Asia but also a complemented flow of commodities from South Asia to West Asia and Europe.
Regions of southern Asia were lands of wealth and opportunity. People came. Immigrants altered societies most where they settled most commonly, in urban centers along trade routes. Among the overland migrants who came into India primarily from southern regions of Central and West Asia, two social categories can be usefully distinguished. Leading the way, warriors organized fighters, military suppliers, and service providers on ethnic lines in groups defined by tribe, clan, and lineage, mostly Turks and Afghans. Even these groups were multi-ethnic, but groups in the second, non-military category, were even more so. Migrants in both categories coming from Persia increased over time, especially after 1556, when Persian literati came into the Mughal service and the center of gravity of Persian culture shifted into South Asia. Most immigrants were Muslim non-combatants. They generated multi-cultural centers of social change, mostly in and around urban centers. They caused a huge leap urbanization. Historical documentation also increased with waves of immigration, often as a consequence of patronage by sultans. Most new documentation pertains to the sultans’ activities and interests, rather than to those of ordinary immigrants. Al Biruni’s India (1048) begins the new documentation and carries a feeling of discovery and exploration. New architectural documentation begins in 1311, with Alauddin Khalji’s Alai Darwaza arose in Delhi, a massive gateway that makes a solid Muslim cultural statement. We know much more about sultans, however, than about Al Biruni’s Lahore or about the people who built and passed through the Alai Darwaza.
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Sunny Narang
From the thirteenth to sixteenth century, Turk and Afghan warriors pushed old medieval dynasties into subordinate positions and carved out independent domains for themselves. They formed a new, culturally distinct, ruling class, poised above old dynastic clans and village elites. Thus the new dynasties added new layers to the multiple sovereignties of medieval history. As before, losers in war fled to fight elsewhere. As during Chola expansion, chain reactions ensued. Conquered Rajputs conquered local rulers in the western Himalayas and Punjab hills, who climbed to fight in higher valleys. As they arrived in Nepal, Yaksha Malla (1429-1482) divided his kingdom among his three sons, who ruled Katmandu, Patan, and Bhaktpur (all now inside the city of Katmandu); and each son had to fight Kshatriyas who had fled defeat in plains. Fighters from north India also moved south, where in the fourteenth century, two brothers Bukka built a new dynasty at Vijayanagar on the southern edge of Turk and Afghan expansion. Telugu and Kannada warriors fled Bahmani sultans in the Deccan to conquer Tamils farther south and form new dynastic enclaves on the southeast coast.
Centuries of competitive interaction imbued military rulers with many common traits. Subordination, alliance-building, emulation, and learning brought cultural borrowing, diffusion, and amalgamation. In new dynastic domains, a new kind of cultural complex emerged that gave rulers many options, one of which was to define Hindu and Muslim religious sects in opposition to one another, but they more typically engaged in multi-cultural patronage. In later medieval societies, the spirit and practice of Hindu bhakti mingled with those of Muslim sufi mysticism around saintly exemplars of spiritual power and in music, poetry, and eclectic divine experience. Spiritual guides, teachers, mystics, poets, festivities, and sacrificial offerings attracted people who worshiped at temples and mosques. Turkish, Afghan, Persian, and regional Hindu aesthetic and engineering motifs mingled in the arts, fortresses, palaces, and consumer taste. The regalia of royalty formed a symbolic language of honour that was spoken by rulers of all religions, who recognized one another’s authority and engaged in common rituals of rank. Rajas and sultans fought, taxed, invested, administered, and transacted with one another using the same lexicon and technologies, learning from one another. Vijayanagar provides one good example of such mingling. Its Rayas faced deadly enemies in the Bijapur Sultans, who eventually destroyed Vijayanagar; but Rayas themselves became Hindu sultans and their techniques of power closely resembled Bijapur sultans. Nayakas in the south and Rajputs in the north likewise assumed the mixed character of Hindu sultans.
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At the heart of each new dynastic domain, capitals needed serious fortification. Big stone forts arose in rapid succession on major arteries of mobility running east-west in the northern plains and north-south in the peninsula: at Kota (1264), Bijapur (1325), Vijayanagar (1336), Gulbarga (1347), Jaunpur (1359), Hisar (1361), Ahmedabad (1413), Jodhpur (1465), Ludhiana (1481), Ahmadnagar (1494), Udaipur (1500), and Agra (1506). In this context, Delhi began its long career as an imperial capital, strategically astride routes down the Ganga and into Malwa and the Deccan.
The new dynastic capitals were often not located in the most fertile agricultural tracts or in old medieval centres in riverine lowlands, but rather in the uplands, on dry ground in strategic sites along a route of communication, march, and supply. As new dynastic domains grew richer, forts became fortified cities with palaces, large open courtyards, gardens, fountains, garrisons, stables, markets, mosques, temples, shrines, and servant quarters. The architectural elaboration of fortified space became big business; it produced a new kind of urban landscape. Even the elegant Taj Mahal is encased in fortifications. Inside a typical fort, we find palace glamour as well as stables and barracks; we see a self-contained, armed city, most of whose elements came from far away. Permanent armies drawing specialist soldiers and supplies from extensive networks of trade and migration sustained these new urban centres. No new dynasty of any significance rested on resources from its capital’s immediate hinterland; and to this extent, they were all imperial, however small.
Political geography no longer focused as much as before on agrarian core regions; rather, it followed the routes of armies. A typical sultan’s domain consisted of a series of fortified sites, each with an army that lived on taxes from its surrounding land. Dynasties expanded as local fort commanders submitted to one central command; they fragmented when their commanders declared independence, as they often did. The two great imperial success stories were the Delhi Sultans, whose five dynastic lineages embraced a shifting collection of subordinate rulers for three hundred years, from 1206 to 1526; and the Mughals, whose one lineage controlled a vast military command for about half that long, from the day of Akbar’s coronation, in 1556, to the day of Aurangzeb’s death, in 1707.
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Sunny Narang
In 1595, Abu Fazl's treatise on Akbar’s reign, A'in-i Akbari suggests that the military may have employed (directly and indirectly) almost a quarter of the imperial population. Many men traveled long distances to fight. It became standard practice for peasants to leave the Bhojpuri region, on the border of Bihar and Uttar Pradesh, after the harvest each year, to fight as far away as the Deccan, to collect wages and booty, and then return home to plant the next crop. Short distance seasonal military migration became an integral feature of peasant subsistence in the Deccan. Dynasties expanded only because warriors migrated to its periphery, where they fought, settled, and attracted new waves of military migration. War pushed peasants away from home by disrupting farm operations, and by forcing villagers to feed armies. Life on the move became a common social experience for many people: seasonal migrants, people fleeing war and drought, army suppliers and camp followers, artisans moving to find work and peasants looking for new land, traders, nomads, shifting cultivators, hunters, herders, and transporters. Altogether, people on the move for at least part of each year may have comprised half the total population of major dynastic domains in the seventeenth and eighteenth century.
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Is there any official record of this statement that half the population was engaged in seasonal migration in the 17th and 18th centuries? Because such migration should have loosened the hold of the caste system somewhat as it has done in independent india.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Migration loosened the hold of the caste system? Migrants to cities live in segregation, are employed in occupations that show stratification and barriers to entry. It might not be blatantly visible, but the keen eye can pick it up.
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Not always. Many Dalits and Adivasis use the anonymity of urban living in independent india to get around caste discrimination. I said to "some extent" in my original comment
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  yes to some extent..but increasingly becoming stratified...
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- Sunny Narang
  Rahul Banerjee
  this is from official course material from UPenn http://www.history.upenn.edu/.../hist086/material/Chap2.htm
  HISTORY.UPENN.EDU
  Chapter Two
  Chapter Two
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- Aparna Krishnan
  The white man seems to have given more time to understanding jati and Dharma, albeit imperfectly as in this material, than our own modern intellectuals!! To whom the word Dharma and Jati are red rags.
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Sunny Narang
  it is written in this course material - " Altogether, people on the move for at least part of each year may have comprised half the total population of major dynastic domains in the seventeenth and eighteenth century." But there is no citation to support this conjecture (Please note the use of the word "may") . When even today migration according to the Census 2011 constitutes about 30% of the population and 84% of this is intra state, it is hard to believe that it was 50% in the 17th and 18th centuries.
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- Sunny Narang
  Rahul there were no data scientists or data collectors in those centuries , in fact even data today in India is all manipulated , its conjecture . Everything in India is conjecture that is why there are only political positions , no solutions . The fact is that a large percentage moves , has moved all the time , it can be anything between 25 to 50% , but as Hima said people in India always move as communities , so it does'nt affect Jati networks at all .
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- Rahul Banerjee
  you cant say that migration does not affect social networks at all. in independent india both caste rigidity and untouchability have been reduced by migration into urban areas to a certain extent. anyway what intrigues me is that despite so much flux, which is very well recorded for the central indian region from the fifteenth century onwards in which state formation and change in dynasties between various castes took place continuously, the caste system has largely endured in its rigidity and as Hima says is now being used to solidify identities in the fight to corner state power and resources
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- Sunny Narang
  Rahul I don't think you have spent enough time with powerful OBC dominant jatis , who are numerically 10-30% in many regions of India . They are the Lathi power , mostly small and medium peasants and their Jati networks now control many Govt contracts as well as local bureaucracies which give the contracts . Jati runs India , not upper castes who have become the most urbanized and global but Dominant castes . Yadavs , Jats , Kammas , Kapus , and many such equivalents have their own political formations . The Jati power is only increasing not reducing . BJP grew by getting the minority OBC together , like Modi himself . Every state has similar stories . Also Meena , Gujjars , Kurmis other lower OBC and ST are now claiming power . Jati is going nowhere in India .
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- Sunny Narang
  A Yadav professional told me under Akhilesh Yadav in UP , that General castes should leave UP . So now Rajputs under Yogi are flexing muscles , that has pushed Mayawati and Akhilesh together , but on ground its Dalits who work as agri labour for Yadavs , so its not a sustainable coalition. In fact Mayawati won power with her main advisor Mishra who is a Brahmin , creating a Brahmin Dalit combo ! So India will throw up its own new coalitions all the time.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  when we talk about migration and percentages, we also need to look at the actual population sizes back then. Between 1600-1700 population increased at the highest rate and urbanisation was also at the highest levels compared to Europe or even the peak of the British empire till 1900.
  More land must have come into organised agriculture, meaning more migration to add to the peasant numbers, more conscription to guard the cities, towns and forts. I can totally understand the necessity to move people from the gangetic plains to the newly occupied territories of the South and back.
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- Sunny Narang
  Btw the BSP financial power was funded by the SC businessmen in shoe and leather trade in Agra , where they had always lived . The only state in India which has had a Dalit Party rule is UP , not any so called left state or south . How Kanshi Ram (A Sikh) and Mayawati have changed social realities is a must read . "Mayawati’s attainment of political power, says Rawat, has changed the socio-political axis in villages. “Earlier a Brahmin would go to a Dalit hut, stop at a distance and then ask him to vote for a party he himself was voting for. But now he goes inside, turns the cot down, sits on it, makes the Dalit sit too, and then seeks a vote for Behenji,” he says.
  But Dalit activists feel there is still much left to achieve. “A Dalit youth born after 1990 has not seen casteism as much as his previous generations. A middle class Dalit household is a replica of a Brahmin household. So on what basis will he give you votes? For his vote, you will have to go beyond the politics of symbols and icons,” says Ajay Rawat. RB Rawat agrees. “Seventy per cent of Scheduled Castes still do not write their surnames,” he says. “We want to arrive at a point where Chamarji will be as respectable and acceptable as Panditji.” http://www.openthemagazine.com/.../cover.../a-matter-of-maya
  OPENTHEMAGAZINE.COM
  A Matter of Maya
  A Matter of Maya
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- Sunny Narang
  Komakkambedu Himakiran
  in just the earlier century 16th Akbar built one of the biggest economies on the planet "Akbar’s government was collecting income of what today would be $10.6 billion annually by the end of his reign. By comparison, Elizabeth I of England, who had an almost identical period of reign (1558-1603), was bringing in today's equivalent of $163 million on average in each of her final years.
  According to Money.com’s “The 10 Richest People of All Time,” Akbar ranks No. 4, controlling a quarter of the world’s economic output at that time.
  “Akbar’s most enduring achievement was to leave behind a system of administration whose framework endures in the subcontinent till now,” wrote Burke. “The system of government today is not monarchical, but in other respects is reminiscent of Akbar’s. The reason is that his system remained virtually intact during the reigns of his descendants, who ruled India for another 2-1/2 centuries.” https://www.investors.com/.../akbar-the-great-conquered.../
  TIME.COM
  MONEY: Personal Finance News & Advice
  MONEY: Personal Finance News & Advice
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- Rahul Banerjee
  where have i said that the upper castes run india? i have just agreed with Hima that caste identities are solidifying in the fight for state power and as the OBCs are the most numerous by far, it is only to be expected that they are increasingly calling the shots. as a person who has spent 30 odd years trying to fight alongside Adivasis for their rights in western madhya, pradesh which has a dominant OBC presence (48%) which largely oppresses them, I am well aware of the power of the OBCs. But all this mobilisation is along caste lines so i dont see how you can aver that jati is going nowhere.
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- Sunny Narang
  I said "Jati is going nowhere " meaning it will be there forever
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- Sunny Narang
  In fact in North East India , its the Nagas , Mizos , Khasis et al who are the social , economic and political elites , its the immigrants from Bihar , Nepal and Bangladesh who are the landless workers and labour !
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Sunny Narang
  as for Akbar, despite being economically and politically so powerful he made a major mistake that we as a nation are still ruing to this day. He was advised by his generals to build a navy to take on the Europeans who had captured the international trade by dint of their superior naval presence. Akbar given his huge resources could easily have done that and booted the Europeans out of the Indian ocean but he didn't and agreed to pay the Europeans a surcharge instead and the latter consolidated their toeholds in the subcontinent. With the decline of the Mughal empire this crucial mistake in not building a powerful navy resulted eventually in the British colonising India and the rest is a very sad history.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Rahul Banerjee
  You need to be from the coast to understand the seas...Akbar obviously didn't get it, neither did the Vijayanagar empire. They were happy allowing traders to control the ports. Cholas are the gold standard in terms of Navy. I can't imagine the scene in the oceans with their fleets toying with world trade...
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- Rahul Banerjee
  Yes we have had a great maritime history and so it is all the more galling that the Mughals beginning with Akbar did not draw on it to boot the europeans out of the indian ocean.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  can't blame him..he is a son of the mountain passes...and the deserts...
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Rulers in the North seem to be focused on the Northwest all through history. The current obsession with Pakistan is a reflection of the same, IMO.
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- Sunny Narang
  True Hima , the North is obsessed with the Himalayas and beyond on the North West side . Akbar used to laugh at the seas saying how do you control the sea . But all Empires have a best by date . British effectively started only in 1857 ended 1947 . Mughal and Chola lasted longer . The US Empire had a clean run only for 11 years from fall of USSR to Twin Towers . So one should always be watching new emerging powers . And tools .
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- Rahul Banerjee
  the price we paid under British rule however is too much to be brushed off so lightly. the number of people who died in famines in first 100 years from plassey to 1857 alone was more than 50 million. then there was the far more structurally debilitating devastation wrought by deindustrialisation and extortion of land revenue from agriculture.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  No empire has gone past 300 years in history. Very tough to sustain that.
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Chittaroopa Palit
Thank you veey much for making the effort to explain . Urban growth and modernity does offer an escape from caste oppression indignity and exclusion . At least to some extent as it gives the cloak of anonymity.
- Sunny Narang
  Yes it does Chittaroopa , but it will soon stop with increased mechanization and automation , and the ecological unsustainable energy and consumption of cities . The only option will be another cultural , social transformation that is rooted like the Basava , Sikh, Bhakti traditions in dignity and human infinity across caste and class . And appropriate tools to dignify the dirty and dangerous occupations . In Delhi now it is not the SC who do the sewage and garbage but Bangladeshi immigrants and the Govt. SC manage them through barter contracts , of letting them segregate garbage .
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- Chittaroopa Palit
  Of course.
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- Chittaroopa Palit
  We have to repudiate caste entirely.
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- Aparna Krishnan
  Caate will not go anywhere. In my panchayat the Mala, the Reddy, the Balija are confortable in their clan networks, their gods, their customs.
  In Malapalle (The SC hallet, also called Paalaguttapalle/Daliwada) they are clear that they need secure livlihoods, and are nowhere seeking wiping out of their caste name. Or intend giving up their clan gods.
  Renegotiations of the hierarchies need to start on the economic fromt. The rest people will handle, and do not need the wisdom of outsiders. They are clear, and I agree with my learnings of 20 years in the community.
  Drought has been a sad leveller, bringing landlord and labourer to their knees.
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Aparna Krishnan
Infinite learnings here.
Arindam Ghosh
I am well aware of the Bhakti Period at later times. Who are you referring to in 600 to 900 AD period?
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  What is referred to as Bhakti period in the north and east is 15-17th centuries.
  Bhakti movement started in erstwhile Tamilagam (Kerala included) somewhere in the 8th century and spread to the north and east later on.
  It was started by the Alwars (Vaishnavism) and Nayanmars (Saivism).
  Totally 12 Alwars and 63 Nayanmars were there. Between 600AD and 1300AD, but the core period was 600-900AD.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  It is very interesting. I suspect that the time period could be earlier. For reasons that will require a completely different thread I suspect that time period of Krishna is around 1500 BC. I always wonder where were the direct disciples of Krishna after Him. And Alwars may be.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Alwars are well documented here. There 108 Divyadesams which are basically the temples where they went are sang in praise of the Lord. Except for 2 (Sri Vaikuntam & Thirupaarkadal where the Devas & Asuras churned the sea) rest are in the subcontinent. Most of them in Tamilnadu. The time period is 600-900 mostly.
  I don't want to get into the time period of Krishna. For us, it's mostly Perumal (Vishnu).
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Would you suggest a good book about Alwars?
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Alwars The Vaishnavite Saints by Vankataraman is a short book.
  There are publications which are sold in all temples, which have the details about them like which temples they sang in, etc.
  The entire compilation of 4000 Pasurams is called Naalayira Divya Prabandham or Dravida Veda.
  There are enough sites online that go into details both on the Alwars and the Pasurams.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  http://www.divyadesam.com/alwars.shtml
  This site is a virtual encyclopedia on the Divya Desams, Alwars and the Pasurams.
  DIVYADESAM.COM
  12 Great Alwars, Alvars, Azhwars, Nammalwar, Sri Andal, Alwar, Hindu Temples, Periyalwar
  12 Great Alwars, Alvars, Azhwars, Nammalwar, Sri Andal, Alwar, Hindu Temples, Periyalwar
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  The Divya Desams:
  https://drive.google.com/open...
  GOOGLE.COM
  108 Divya Desams - Google My Maps
  108 Divya Desams - Google My Maps
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  For Saivism:
  275 Paadal Petra Thalangal (places where the 63 Nayanmars sang in praise of Lord Siva).
  https://drive.google.com/open...
  GOOGLE.COM
  275 Paadal Petra Thalams - Google My Maps
  275 Paadal Petra Thalams - Google My Maps
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- Arindam Ghosh
  Thanks. I was completely unaware of the current controversy regarding Andal. So sad that symbols of love and devotions are used to incite hatred and violence.
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Arindam Ghosh
  that’s a different story. BJP/RSS tried to make it an issue but got their hands burnt. They strut around like they are Hindus or guardians of Hinduism. That won’t fly in Tamilnadu as our roots go so deep that no Hindutva rhetoric will be able to withstand the average knowledge that the person here has on religion and spirituality.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  I am reminded of a Bengali Poem.
  We consider Gods as our relatives and light lamps in the sky because we have seen before our eyes how in our huts humans have attained divinity. We have seen in the eyes of our child the reflection of the king of the world. Churning the nectar of the Bengali Heart Nimai (Chaitanya) took form
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Arindam Ghosh
  post the transliteration here.
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- Arindam Ghosh
  দেবতারে মোরা আত্মীয় জানি, আকাশে প্রদীপ জ্বালি, আমাদেরি এই কুটীরে দেখেছি মানুষের ঠাকুরালি ; ঘরের ছেলের চক্ষে দেখেছি বিশ্বভূপের ছায়া, বাঙালীর হিয়া অমিয় মথিয়া নিমাই ধরেছে কায়া ।
  Devatare mora atmyio jani akashe prodip jali. Amader ei kutire dekhechhi manusher thakurali. Gharer chheler chokkhe dekhechhi biswaobhuper chhaya. Bangalir hia amiyo mathia nimai dhorechhe kaya.
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  See Translation
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- Komakkambedu Himakiran
  Thank you, I could make out most of it!
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- Arindam Ghosh
  I think I can see how the traces of Bhakti movement was transmitted through the Sena Kings that came to rule Bengal from South India which led to the flowering of the tradition in Bengal.
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Adharshila Learning Centre
Satyam Shrivastava
KR Athiyaman
Western consensus of modernity is not a disaster but a harbinger of democracy, liberal outlook and pluralism. Religious beliefs, practices are endorsed and accepted as personal freedom under this modernity whereas the opposite may not be true. The rigid, hierarchical, male chauvinistic, undemocratic old order has crumbled and people are liberated now. Cheers.
KR Athiyaman
Self torture in the name of religious beliefs, listed in this post cannot be equated with mania for pop icons. No self torture is involved but pure enjoyment. This is rational while flogging self is irrational. I am a believer and have deep interest in spiritualism. But I also enjoy the pop music and liberation ushered in by western values of liberalism and modernity. Perfectly compatible.

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Wednesday 7 April 2021

A Long Discussion on Castes and Jatis - Sunny Narang

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