FB Discussions - Issues with Veganism

Issues with veganism

1. Moral superiority. Most vegans are upper class. They may have chosen to stop milk, but their overall carbon footprint would be far far higher than any simple villager who has meat. Each of us is free to drop what we want without claiming high ground The urban vegans (in most cases) would do well to give up cars first before preaching veganism to the 'masses'.

2. A reductionist nutritional wisdom claiming to know better than traditional wisdom. My village people believe milk is good for children, and want to give them milk if they can. Ayurveda also says milk is good. To come up with new fangled theories based on some lab tests and experiments to dismiss them and their understanding is typical western intrusion into traditional wisdom. I have said in the above comments that I have addressed my village children’s malnutrition with dals, and then with milk, and the difference in effect is vast. That peice of experiential detail is ignored in the thread.

3. The ethics of modern diarying I am in agreement with. That is the ethics of modern industrial processes and modern living. Which needs to be corrected on every front, including this.

But to say that we should stop milk for the sake of cows is infantile. If milk ceased to be bought my village people would have to abandon the cows because modern industrial living has reduced the economy to cattle to just this. There are no prehistoric pristine forests where the cows can roam free and graze. From the point of view of cows ethical diarying and cattle based agriculture needs to be recreated.

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Aparna Krishnan According to Ayurveda children and old people (bala vrudhdha) need milk. Diversionary statements like ““Scientists have found that blood taken from vegans is 8 times more effective at killing cancer cells than blood taken from those following a Standard American Diet.In a… riseofthevegan.com|By Rise of The Vegan” do not help.

Karthikeyan Subramanyan Madam, we have evolved a lot from the old ages and it has been proved that humans , like any other mammal don't need the bovine breast fluid of another suffering animal that has been raped again and again and its baby stolen away for meat or veal. Simply said, humans don't need cows milk.

Karthikeyan Subramanyan Please come out of the Ayurvedha argument and use your logical brain madam.

Anantha Sayanan karthikeyan- the argument should not be about the abused milk, but milk in general..its clear how the milk is abused and how the cow is illtreated..but confine the argument to why we dont need milk....

Anantha Sayanan and no, pl donot get in to such lines..aparna has more logic and brain than all of us put together..let arguments and discussions be very pointed and sharp not accusations and outbursts..these weaken any argument..

Karthikeyan Subramanyan Milk is not abused, sir. All the earthlings are abused. And there is no point in not listening to my "graphic" words. Ok, coming to perils of milk - A1 or A2, it is highly acidic in nature and can possibly cause osteoporosis than supply calcium to our body. Animal proteins are established with no doubt to create an environment that propagates cancer cells. What more do u want. Ask your friend to talk to me if she needs more help.  Casein cannot be digested by humans without whey. Once babies are weaned, the casein doesn't get digested. All your reaction comes from the basic fact - my points by far denies the lies we all have been brought up with over the years. Including "Krishna drank milk". So you feel its offensive. I can understand.

Aparna Krishnan There based on experience I would differ Ananthu. I have walked the same paths. For the same reaons I avoided milk for my village children despite ayurveda clearly indicating the need. I gave sundal to the children for years for 'protien', choosing an allopathic doctors advice over dr. girija's. But finally when I started milk for these undernourished children, the effect was dramatic. I would stand by the need for milk, especially for the undernourished masses of children on this land. At the same time I face the violence and utter degradation in the process. In earlier years when the agriculture was organic, and the bulls and cows had a valued role, there was greater humanity. Yes, we live in an anthropocentric world where bulls were castrated to help in plowing. Are tractors better ? I would personally work backwards towards an integrated agriculture that is organic, systems that are small and humane, and a cattle-man reationship that has existed for 10000 years now and cannot be cancelled except by turning totally industrial.

Karthikeyan Subramanyan If you want calcium, sesame seeds contain 13 times the calcium for unit quantity of milk. Other rich sources are spinach (palak), methi, curry leaves..

Aparna Krishnan That reductionist logic of modern science is flawed. The effect of milk is totally different from the effect of 5 other substances containing its components. I request that our arguments against milk stay ethical reaons. And that one is to give up one's health for the sake for the health of the cow. The rest will fly in the face of experience.

Aparna Krishnan Animal protien has a very different nature from vegetable protien. In practice and as per the ayurveda texts. Therefore there is no 'substitute' for milk. One can give it up personally, or one can work towards saner systems of being and production.

Karthikeyan Subramanyan "There is no substitute for milk".? I am saying it is not required in first place. It will bring more harm than good. Yeah there is no substitute for the calf, not for me and you.

Aparna Krishnan I am with you in the ethical argument. Not in the health analysis, The two are getting mixed up in your responses. Anyway I will stop now. I have nothing more to add really.

Karthikeyan Subramanyan I am not here to debate. I presented raw facts. You can take them if you like. But if there is good luck, these facts may throttle your thought process and make you research the truth.

Seetha Anand Vaidyam Aparna Krishnan I am surprised that you think milk is an absolute must for good health while study after study and so many personal experiences including that of mine, my family and students prove that avoiding milk improves health dramatically. Ayurveda does not recommend milk the way it is consumed today, Krishna being a cowherd had to steal butter, which meant that milk was scarce in those days too. Andal in Thiruppavai sings about abstinence from milk and milk products. What is your argument specifically about ? What do you think is gained through milk ?

Aparna Krishnan children and old people need it. middle aged people dont. by my experience and the texts. in the west incidentally, the home of these 'studies', the parents give the kids good milk and try to source from free range cows !

Seetha Anand Vaidyam Children and old people need it for what can you specify?

Aparna Krishnan I can search out the shloka if you are interested. Vataharam, medhyam, bala, vrrushyam, and many other qualities. anyway - never mind. today's diarying is criminal, and needs to be redone from start. beginning with organic farming, cowdung fertilized, and bullpower based.

Seetha Anand Vaidyam Forget the texts , in your experience what do you think children and old people lose by not consuming milk ?

Aparna Krishnan well refer to above comment on my children. thank you karthikeyan, i have walked all roads from being vegan, to refusing to give my village children milk and only giving sundal, to now concluding here. anyway its ok - lets differ, np.

Seetha Anand Vaidyam   Milk is not a necessity for calcium , protein and good health. It is in fact a deterrent. Not because it is commercial dairy milk  

Aparna Krishnan i dont look at things allopathically, acid.alkaline, calcium vitamin. Its different in ayurveda. anyway that cannot be a FB discussion.

Seetha Anand Vaidyam Ayurveda also talks about the same but with different terminologies. Alkalinity is an important premise for good health. But yes, we all strive to do what we think is best. But I do hope you read further about the unnecessity of milk!!

Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Haha, while we have the luxury to debate all of this, milk and meat are the easiest sources of animal protein and fat that villages can afford. Please don't force your privileged life choices on the masses.

Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Traditionally, South Indian communities have milk to kids till age 6-7; adults had curds and buttermilk, this was due to the lower milk yield of our cattle. Our animal protein and fat needs were mainly from meat.

If you take Gujarat/Rajasthan breeds, they yield quite a lot and that's why you see heavy usage of milk, butter, ghee, curds there and lesser or zero need for meat.

Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula And don't get started with plant protein like pulses; we've never produced enough of that and pulses are a luxury for most.

Narasimham Jammi Aparna .... Do not get sucked into an argument with vegans.... I've been down this road before... Like you rightly mentioned, their knowledge is half-baked, their "information" about Ayurveda is from some random English translation of the texts. While we strive to reach out to the everyone about the importance of Ayurveda, we have such arguments about milk not being good for you. Just let it go. BTW, we interacted a few years ago in Dr Girija's clinic in adyar.

The truth beyond veganism.

1. Small farmers survive my selling milk from one or two cows. The cows are like family to them, and they take care. That milk sale is all that sustains them during droughts also.

2. Were milk to be unsaleable the poor farmer would be forced to abandon the cow, which would then simply wander and starve. There are no wild forests where the cow can go to and become a 'wild cow'.

3. Small children need milk for their well being. The village children flourished when they started having milk everyday.

Yes, modern commercial diarying is perverted. As is everything is a large scale moderinsed civilization, for that matter. The solution is to create viable and sane systems of milk and cow care. That can actually only happen when organic farming also gets established as cowdung becones an important part of existance, and old cows and male cattle also stay revelent. Economics can never be bypassed in a larger sense.

The integrated picture is needed. Animal welfare, community welfare, health, economics. Unidimensional understanding and response can damage more.