The last (and first) point.
Aparna Krishnan Jallikattu is not a wrong. Torture there is not the norm. Cattle are family to the owners as also a pillar of support. They will not and do not allow hurt. That common sense fact should be self evident to anyone with basic intelligence. Maybe to imagine torture is just more exciting, I really dont know.
Like · Reply · Just now · Edited
Aparna Krishnan The only way one can understand this is to be interested enough to step out of 'discussions' and leg it to a village and stay and learn facts.
An IIT professor, a friend of mine, is strongly against the protests regarding Jallikattu. She said today, "Next they may demand that all forests be cut, and we will give in to a mob."
Such little faith in people ? And their understanding and sense and sensibility ?
It was people who saved the earth and the forests. It was modern technology that taught to exploit the earth, and a matching industrilization that proceeded to strip it bare. And IIT is a termple of modern technology.
54Sanjay Maharishi, Vigneshwaran RK and 52 others
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Just because from IIT, they should not consider themselves as genius, in my personal experience most of the IITians are theoretically good not by practical. And IIT is the institute produce the skills for UK and US not for India, so we don't care for their some half knowledge thoughts....
Really? No one claimed to be a genius but how many have you interacted with?
They need not to claim, their attitude will clear tell you the dominance,
He is right. But then I understand he doesn't agree with you.
Ever since we started making fire we are destroying this planet, industrial revolution only speeded the Proses of destruction.
This is an interesting debate that needs to be held. The issue is to assume that mobs / crowds are always wrong and scientists send technocrats are always right. While no one would explicitly use these binaries, most opinions are stemming from this polarised views. Our schooling system, idea about careers, disconnect with rural life and it's priorities are all to do with this along with the insecurity of our own economic well being. The world view that is underlying these are that modernity inherently came to save us and til them we were savages. That is the problematic
By extension the rural and the poor are stupids !
Aparna Krishnan
This debate has opened about the fissures in our societies about the children of colonial elitism and traditions. In India where "modernist" forces are much stronger than elsewhere, giving in to peasant traditions would constitute a defeat. This disconnect is a colonial legacy and our biggest unhealble ailment.
The modern science is a process that does not provide a solution but its a way of breaking up things and knowing what is the reaction. Its all physical!
I am happy that so many localised narratives are coming up as part of this debate. What we need to do is not to be judgmental about these narratives during into our own priorities and aspirations. This is great time to hear our ordinary people, amazing speeches in the beach. Students, farmer leaders, farmers, housewives... When is the last time such people came out and articulated what they felt in issues of society and governance. I am observing, listening and learning. What blessed times
Rama Subramanian
I am from Bangladesh. I think it's wonderful to hear what you say. As an academic and journalist I am in constant conflict with people of my world who steal the voices of the "local people". Our education system has become ideologically against any local narrative. Unless education is for both literate and extra literates these voices will be lost. Your movement is a cultural liberation movement it seems. Thanks
Urban mob is as bad as rural mob. The former manifested in genocide and breaking of religious monuments. The rural ( in Haryana) oversaw destruction and rapes.
The current close-to-heart theme may become a winning point for the accumulated mass but will they stop at this? Already cauvery waters are being mentioned and it will not be long before each state has its own " cultural grievance" resolved by forcing governments to bring in Ordinances,defying the Courts.
We want many regional SC. Sc in Delhi can only understand and administer to Lutyens Delhi and the elite thre.
Regional SCs....are you sure it won't percolate to Districts? Issues concerning law don't reach SC before they are done to death in lower courts and High Courts.
Federal system cannot act uniform unless it is of some national importance or problem by itself is uniform throughout the nation. Regional identities, administration and justice needs should be given importance!
jallikattu is not an event planned in the night and done in the morning. It is ritual where bull Tamers and bull owners fast for a month and conduct the sport only after a pooja is performed at the village temple." 09:07 AM (IST), Jan 22
Yes. Many protestors out there and medias project it as a Tamil pride or identity. But in the core it is a socio-cultural sports associated with religious belief of a village! Like love adds power to the worship valour too adds some power!
Bulls are members of a family. They are also a pillar of the house economy. And urbans are fools enough to beleive that they will be torchered for fun. Mad, fully mad.
fully agree with your thoughts ....
By extension of same logic, How can we trust mobs going into various schools on one day saying Election Day and selects somebody ?
No use of talking to these square headed morons. Just quit them.
One has to engage. They are the opinion makers for policies.
The language ( calling people who do not agree as morons) used by supporters reflect their stubborn mindsets and refusal to see the other side. Who wishes to engage with such intolerant "wise"men !
Morons are ones who donot see ground reality but argue upon some dry logic. They can never be convinced as they start with pretext of know all. It will be waste of time to engage with them.
People usually listen, and process details in their own times. Yes, some are impossible.
This is not a mob anymore. Entire Tamil race is here and supporting jallikattu.
Cows and bulls are worshipped for years in Tamil Nadu and culture will not allow torture.
Now someone will say 'sati' !!
Yes, for us he(bull) is Nandi the mount of our Lord Shiva! Its an animal our Krishna played with. For us she(cow) is Kamadhenu. The word used to denote cow in Tamil is 'Maadu' that means 'the permanent wealth'! In Kannada too the they use 'Dhanam' to denote a cow in the same meaning! How we will ever allow torturing the bulls or cow? If it had happened or happens it is contemptible. Thats why the sport has been regulated by many rules.
Is your friend from IIT chennai? It is IIT chennai which is indulging in cutting trees and violating CMDA building norms and building a concrete jungle next to Gunidy national park
Many of my friends once removed from villages share this distrust of common people. The individual or the institution are immaterial.
true - but look at cheek of an institution like IIT chennai - it says that it is a central institute and it need not respect CMDA rules..
IIT Madras didn't cut any trees when it was started. I don't think they violate that even now. Same with IISc.
sirji - you can contact Mr.Nithyanand jeyaraman - an actiivist based in chennai. They are fighting with IIT chennai on this. I do not know about IISc
Seems this victory going to lead us towards unprecedented chaos india wide. Next on republic day, R.K.beach vishakha... on AP special status. already top on twitter,fb trends.
i am inspired. Am telling my garbage gang that we should do this to get our city to manage the waste responsibly or give up like Alapuzzah. both would be better than current neither here or there option. do you think we can get as many people to care?
Today I met two sets of good urban friends after a long while. I realized that in unbridgeable ways we have gone apart, though the friendship itself witll stay.
They see the Crowds asking for their jallikattu as regressive, violent and irresponsible. I know the People are rooted in their culture and traditions, and are now demanding their right to claim their own, without urban moral police.
I also see the shallowness of the logical processes of my urban friends.
1. They have never seen a jallikattu, never intend to go and see one, but have made sweeping opinions on 'violence' therein. Shallowmess and arrogance is a dangerous combination
2. They do not see their ridiculousness in not taking on the daily violence of their KFCs and consuming lifestyles, but the once-a-year purported violence of jallikattu.
This issue has drawn clear lines. I am happy that I stand on the side of the majority, of the less educated and rooted people of this land. It is also a more intelligent, level headed and honest group.
13Ritesh Singh, Venkatesh Srinivasan and 11 others
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Are they non vegetarians? Did they explicitly say they support KFCs?
Those who opposed women empowerment programs in 50s were rooted and less educated. Those who demolished Babri mosque in 1992 were rooted and less educated. Does it mean that what they did was necessarily right? They too talked about religion and tradition. I observe arrogance in those who keep saying...You people don't understand, you people have not seen Jalikattu. Mind it, there is no monolith narrative of even TN culture. etc.
An outsider needs to understand from inside before passing strictures. If this observation sounds arrogant, so be it.
Majority doesn't necessarily mean right
It has been proved hundreds of times in past
This is a post on jallikattu. To desire to comment on it, you would need to invest the time to go, see and understand. Anything else is intellectual dishonesty.
Its not N and S ma. Its actually not even jallikattu. Its the urban world moral policing a rural world that it does not even know. Jallikattu is a peg because a vast community has come together, tired of the excesses of the Elite Activists. Every traditional game from bullock cart racing to cock fights across all states have been banned. By an urban moral police which it itself the biggest violater by its excesses - leading to a climate change that has committed genocides of species. Not brave enough to take on its peers in their death dance it descends on a once a year event in a rural community. Which is not 'torture', those of us who have participated in them know. In general - there are certianly violations, as everywhere, and which need control. Far worse goes on in horse racing - a daily show. But which is of the elite and by the elite !
Have all those worrying about real or imagined 'torture' in Jallikattu sworn off factory meat, as sold in all cities. And advised all their elite peers to.
Or does that hit too close home ? Pleasenter to preach ? To those one implicitly assumes one's inferiors ?
11Mamatha Balasubramanian, Ritesh Singh and 9 others
Comments
It's not imagined torture. Surprised to see you resorting to Whataboutery
I have been to jallikattus. I know people whos bulls participate. Violence is rare. Have you been to jallikattus.
This is hypocrisy I am pointing out. Is whataboutary another name for that ?
There are many places where the bulls are intoxicated and chilli powder is stuffed into their nose.
Btw, if you are starting a movement for the other thing you mentioned I am with you.
Yeah this is same as hypocrisy. A word I learnt on fb but didn't find in the dictionary.
Please visit a jallikattu.
If it is held again will but I do know that in many places bulls are tortured.
Do you think man as the most powerful creature on the planet can do whatever he wants?
I have also tagged you in another post by Sumeet.
Please find out for yourself first hand - spend a month travelling. The violations are rare. Please go to jallikattus if you wish to have an opinion. That is a general thumb rule.
Maximum recorded violence in history is due to marriages. I also ask for first ban on marriages
on same lines...
There is a difference. We choose to suffer by marrying. Bulls don't get that choice
Man moved to settled agriculture, and that day animals were domesticalted. That cannot be undone. We cannot go back to hunter gatherer existances. To release cows is to send them to starvation and death - there are no pristine forests.In small communities there is a man animal bond that is real and warm. Those economies need to be worked out. Part of that is cultural moorings like cow worship and jallikattu. These need to be understaood on the ground. I request that you take time to move and live in a village for a while. Obly then can discussions be fruitful. In the abstract we cannot reach anywhere.
If you ever see an animal walking into a butcher shop by its own free will to get killed let me know sir. Would love to witness that event. Before jallikkattu which is in one state, let us solve this which is world wide.
Some people don't understand that there are animals evolved to be domesticated. Reality cannot be undone. These animals have dependency on us to survive. They are not wild animals.
There are people who proudly proclaim on FB that they eat meat/beef, along with pictures of plates of food, and then also post pictures of themselves weeping over jallikattu 'hurting the bulls'.
Many of those who were against jallikattu had never seen one, and had no intention of making the effort of going to a village to understand one. But they have the most loud and firm opinions.
This is also why rural Inida stands devastated today. The opiniated opinion makers and the illiterate policy makers have a complete disconnect from rural india, and yet together they frame policies- that make no sense for the villages. They are Bulls let loose in a china shop.
India has to be lead by those who understand villages, who have lived in villages. India is villages - not Lutyens Delhi.
24Parthasarathy VM, Narasimhan Sesh and 22 others
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Empty vessels make the most noise. Even now the lovely lady from PETA says Jallikattu is conducted only a very few places (under 10 if I remember her saying). The degree of ignorance is mind boggling.. and the condescending tone... unbelievable.
The people will react, and throw them out. It has begun.
Local governance structures need to be strengthened.. that's is the only solution ! The millions of farmers then will truly benefit..
The government of Delhi is now practicing a form of local governance with the Mohalla Sabhas.. where the collective will of the people of the locality gets implemented as government schemes !
The villagers understand things so well that they sell agri land for peanuts to the real estate mafia.
Three months ago India had 10 crore economists. Now they all have become environmentalists
Try to involve anyone in a ritual in Delhi (say filing an FIR) and he will ask what is there in it for me? Jallikattu bull on breathing air of Delhi may also do that.
On the way to Marina in the bus early today morning, I was talking to the conductor. He said he was at the Marina yesterday, and that there were five lakhs at least. He said that from his housing colony they had organized food, and he had taken it in a van there. And it tooks hours to cover a short distance as the whole beach was jampacked with people.
He said that the struggle will go on till Jallikattu is legalized, and that it has to restart in his village.
This was a satyagraha. By the people, of the people, for the people.
The bus driver, the vendor, the IT youngsters, all of whom had village roots, or connected to the rural identities.
Even today a satyagraha can shake a government.
That is a happy learning for today.
Many of my friends i realize today, exist in a space between contempt or disdain at worst, and condescension at best, for the 'backward rurals'. That also shows in their ambivalence towards jallikattu.
I despair of reaching to them the essential fact of cutural identity bening central to a community's sense of identity and confidence.
I am unable to show them the deep sense and sensibility of the rural people, and the utter audaciousness of urban interferance into their practices. A urban who has lost his own roots and identity.
Then I take heart from the fact that these educated urbans are an utter minority, and it is the ordinary people where the strength is - of numbers and of rootedness. And it is they, if anyone, can save this land.
Leaving for the Marina ...
That's fine.. You are entitled to your views however barbaric the practice may be..
And you are entitled to your views, however myopic that may be
...
Not sure that that is a good ideas at all. Allow that which is non mometized to stay non monetized. Allow that who's only foundation is pride and community to stay so.When we went to Ganagampeta for Jallikattu, we were welcomed, and food was also given to all. Rich and poor alike. SC and Naidu alike.
We need to show the way away from patents and TRPs and into village generosity and warmth and culture.
Amount can be used for future plans
To post opinions without investing time to go and understand is intellectual irresponsibility. In general.
A far far smaller event in JNU captures the attention of Lutyens Delhi for months. A state is up today into the most widespread and disciplined and non violent revolution in defence of its right to its culture.
Mr. and Ms. Lutyens Delhi ?
36Mili Maria Thomas, Prakash Thangavel and 34 others
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For them anything south of Vindhyas don't exist.
I think that's south of Agra.
Sad. Atleast when the kings rule they had the accountability to give a safe place for their own generation to rule or they took pride on how good they handle. Dono what the current rulers live for
For them, Delhi is nation ....Even the small city CM is the emporer of the world. They cannot grow beyond their plush bungalows and local politics
Aparna Krishnan
if you are referring to the govt in power then I don't agree with this view, because in this case, state is equally an accomplice in the current stalemate (if my understanding is correct, the ruling party had supported it when the state party didn't). If you are referring to real occupants of Lutyens, then I am with you
the real throughbred denizens of Lutyens Delhi. The Beautiful People !
I appreciate the urgency, not the cause.
Thats probably because you do not have village roots and understanding. Only that can give the perspective.
That's exactly what Sanghis tell me when I protest about cow-worship.
Here the people who told you that are correct. Yes, cows are revered and worshipped in my village. Nobody with an understanding of a village can refute it.
Me - how many people now ?
Friend in Marina - Close to 3 lakhs madam
Me - oh, swelled since morning.
Friend - What is happening is a silent revolutionCl
I would never have
any opinion on any elephant game in Africa or Siberia. Simply because I have no way of understanding the nuances of that
culture.
But the urban
english speaking elite of India are rearing to go - to comment and criticize
all rural ways. With nary an intention of going to the hinterlands, staying,
learning, working ...
The rural people can
come and criticize the urbans, hoot at the overflowing landfills, the sewage
pouring into rivers and the blatant consumerism and disparity that they revel
in. But they are too civilized and cultured to, and they mind their own
business.
ViswanathanPadmanabhan The urban
elite have nothing to do except offering their profound opinions on everything
in our country. It is time the media and press ignored them
\
Manish Pandit Defy the
ban. Even Gandhi had to take salt in such a way. Why are we letting people
interfere in such places?
T.R. Shashwath We've decided to
live in a society with certain common laws. The village, or even a single
state, or for that matter the city, can't contravene that. Certain principles
are universal. At least with respect to his world. Your village needs to fit
into the whole. Freedom isn't limitless.
KomakkambeduHimakiranAnugula When prices of
commodities go up outside India, export of agricultural produce is banned. When
prices go up in India, imports are opened up. Is
that a free market system? Is there any
other field/industry where that happens?
Common
laws?
3 lac farmers have committed
suicide in the last 20 years. Hell, one even hung himself on live TV when the
PM was speaking in Delhi.
Our land, water already grabbed.
50 million people displaced internally due to big dams. Millions forced to
migrate under distress and toil as unskilled construction labor in the cities.
Where did the compassion and
morality go?
This country is built for the
upper caste English educated male, preferably North Indian. Rest progressively
are lower, much much lower.
Rajesh Mehar MrShashwath: I
think the larger point being made here is that "we have all decided"
means that most people have actively opted in to whatever legal system operates
in the place you live. While this may be true of urban upper class communities,
rural communities are facing a cognitive dissonance between customs and ways
that are ancient that they want to live with and a legal system that they DID
NOT opt into being forced upon them.
Many poor, landless, rural people today feel utterly disenfranchised. The
system is built by the urban rich to serve the purposes of the urban rich.
Rajesh Mehar For example, the current
problem around Jallikattu:
The Prevention of Cruelty to Animals act
privileges and exempts urban rich cruelty (violent slaughter of animals for
eating, tying up of pet dogs) but picks out and penalizes so called cruelty in
Jallikattu. Did we all decide to follow this common law? No. The answer you
probably have is "but that's the way the system works. There should have
been dissent when the law was brought in place."
Again, at that layer too, the rural poor don't have any agency to participate
in such systems designed by the urban rich for the benefit of the urban rich.
If you ask TN villagers about the Act in question, many people may know about
it's name, and why it's famous right now, but little else about it. That is how
the system wants it, needs it, and keeps it.
Rajesh Mehar "customs
and ways that are ancient - but not
necessarily right” ...Not necessarily right according to whose frame of
reference?
Aparna Krishnan We are by
our very educational system deep alienated from the real India. I have faced it and it has helped me slowly understand the reality of
India, as also the reality and vastness chasm between the real India and me
created by privilege of birth and an English medium schooling .
Aparna Krishnan The laws are
biased towards the rich. Any debate there - please look at the subsidy
distribution. The laws are also biased towards the Hindi belt. The English speaking
get maximum privilege, employability, and after that Hindi. Other local
languages are a far third. The
modern-educated have inherited the mantle of the Englishman.
Rajesh Pandey Aparna Krishnan,
there is hardly any doubt that Government spending is urban centric and tilted
heavily towards the haves. This can be confirmed by the simple choice of words
- while "subsidies" remains a dirty word as they go to he poor (or at
least are supposed to go to the poor), "incentives" remains a good
and positive word as they go to businesses. Nobody asks Government to increase
subsidies, but all lobbies ask for increase in incentives
RajeshPandey But, the
question you have been raising Aparna Krishnan about allowing a traditional
practice, is difficult to comprehend for many urbanites whose sense of right or
wrong is conditioned by the urban-centric education they had (me included),
which looks down upon Jallikattu, but loves Bull-running of Spain and feels
privilegd in rubbing shoulders with the rich and famous in a race course.
Aparna Krishnan Rajesh Pandey, the problem is in the
upper class even seeking to have an opinion on the rural class which they are
alienated from, and which they do not have any real intention of understanding.
Simply moralizing because they are richer and know English !! And suffer from a
deep superiority complex.
Aparna Krishnan Let the
traditional people decide the bounds of traditions. Let the modernists decide
the bounds of modernity (polluted rivers. leaching landfills, cattle killed by
grazing on plastic garbage heaps ...).
Aparna Krishnan Urban
dwellers understand and are responsible for their spaces. Nobody invited them
to carry their moralities into our villages. This is the white man carrying the
burden of civilizing the natives.
Rajesh Pandey I feel, why
we city folks sitting thousands of Kilometres away, have such strong opposition
to a traditional practice, when we have plenty of urban malpractices to worry
about.
KomakkambeduHimakiranAnugula T.R. Shashwath Aparna has seen
both worlds intensely. So her take has much more of a credibility.
You are speaking from propaganda of animal welfare groups incl the videos and
from the judgment. Be fair now. Engage with stakeholders and then comment.
Aparna Krishnan Responsible
opinions can only come from sincere engagement. Otherwise the comments are
irresponsible at best, and mischeivous at worst. T.R. Shashwath
சக்திவேல் தமிழன் to Promote Linguistic Equality: Hindi is Not National Language of India
Seen debate about Jallikattu in NDTV
Non-Tamils (most are so called north Indians) discussing how to ban Tamils cultural event, Jallikattu. I am sure the participants this debate would have never seen jallikattu in person, including Burka Dutt, But discussing about ban....!!! Who gave the right to them...???
Different colours were given to malign/ban my Tamils traditional event.
1. Communal. - - It is identity of Tamils no fucking religion has any business here.
2. Comparison with Spain bull killing. - - Cannot be compared at just see on your own once
3. Contempt of supreme Court. - - We Tamils have to decide what to do about our cultural events, court should stay in it's own limits.
4. Election and vote bank. - - getting vote from Tamils is simply day dream of BJP, Congress. We Tamils would never vote for Indian national parties, we vote for Tamil national parties.
5. All cruelty need to be stopped. - - It has no yardstick.
6. Uncivilised. -- It has no yardstick.
Reasons for shouting.....
A. Banning Bulls events would send bulls to slaughtering for beef export, where native breeds have high demand.
B. By eliminating native Bulls one could decimate native breeds, so as to introduce imported animals like so called imported dogs, where the maintenance cost is much higher and ultimately spread new deceasees.
"Please read what is A1, A2 milk and diabetes. "
C. Milk companies and beef lobbies at work.
We Tamils are with India for our convenience mutual respect should be given, no compromise, no excuses.
If so called India disturbs our mother Tamil land - language - culture - tradition...then we Tamils don't want to be with India, we cannot sacrifice our culture for being India.
Thanks Ravi Kannan Arjun
Always thought Kamal had brains, was grounded. He proves it.
Jallikattu ban and the protests to play are an indication of the deepest chasm in our world today.
Between people who have global power. Folks who can - as another famous actor once punned - talk English, walk English, dream English.
And people who can walk, talk, dance, sing, those many multiple dialects, the many multiple plays of their land, their soil, their roots.
Some may recognise now. Some may take a little time. But the battle lines are drawn. The bugle is sounded.
Trump, Brexit are only and only a small reflection - let's say a reaction -of our own globalised face in making since a few hundred years now.
The writing on the wall is clear. You cannot fly if you don't have roots. Or, as Jesus once said, Man can't live by bread alone. Yes. He can't. He needs home, he needs love, he needs friends, he needs play.
Those still living the same global dream, wakey! Get educated. Roots, they are a'calling.
Root in, so you can fly out.
Those who want to stop jallikattu should come in the ring and stop it themselves. That way either they won't be there to ask for a ban or if they survive they will ask for more such events. Especially all English press and anybody with a camera or press tag, should be made to cover from inside the ring. This is the only way forward the press will write from real experience and not superficial comments
Horse Race and Polo are a sport. Jallikattu is animal torture is it? Hypocrites. Just because those two are played and enjoyed by the westernised, rich and elite and Jallikattu is played by the rural and poor folks, one is a sport and the other is animal torture is it? How is Horse not a performing animal but a bull is? Why should a horse be made to run madly to the pleasure of a few rich and arrogant?
If you are a dog lover or a pet lover, remain that. That doesn't give you the tag of an animal activist. And yes the term "animal activist" is a western invention because it was necessary there as by their religion and culture only man was supreme and Woman and animals were created to serve the man and for his enjoyment. This is as per their belief and scripture. And it's because of that, terms and ideas like "Feminist-Feminism" and "animal activist-animal activism" were born and are in place. And it includes Environmentalists too. In India we had no such regressive ideas towards any life form. A person who runs a Goshala never calls himself an animal activist. Villagers who grow and have goats, cows, bulls, hens, etc don't call themselves animal activists. There lies the difference.
Summa oru naai kuttu ah (adhuvum foreign breed, no country dog) madi la vechu konjikittu, animal activism pesa vandhutaanga....adhuvum chilli beef saptukittu....KFC Chicken saptukittu....
Men and women equally represented in the protest against the ban. Who objected to Jallikattu as a patriarchal system ?
Christian nuns, Muslim families, Hindus. Who tried to show it as a Hindu issue ?
The poor and the rich bringing food for the lakhs on the beach. Who tried to bring in casteist and classist overtones ?
Of the people, by the people, for the people. Jallikattu will happen.
Unlike the western bull, one Indian bull can service up to 40 cows. The bulls which were raised for Jallikattu and bullock carts were a big problem for the western semen selling companies. So they found a way to get rid of them. Using the animal activist groups in India, they ran biased signature campaigns, started the a case in the supreme court and won. Our supreme court's logic : It's absolutely okay to abuse, torture, kill and eat cows but raising them for sport? Nooooo! Did the supreme court forget that cow slaughter is unconstitutional? Why didn't they ban cow slaughter first and then ban less cruel activities? They didn't ban horse racing which is far worse and cruel than bullock-cart racing, because you can't mess with them rich folks right?
Don't get me wrong! I'm against all forms for cruelty. I'm a vegan & an animal activist myself and I can tell you, Jallikattu sans cruelty is possible. Unlike the western bull fight, in Jallikattu, the bull runs the show. It spends barely about 20-30 seconds in the arena. These bulls were raised and treated like gods by the farmers.
It maybe interesting to know that Indian cows reproduce mostly only with injections. The natural way of reproduction which is as much a right as the right to life is not available to them. Even the state is actively involved in giving these inseminations free to farmers. The farmers see no economic logic in keeping bulls which cost 5K per month to maintain. The meat merchants get bulls cheap thanks to the lack of pride in owning a bull. The urban elite first chased the bulls out of transportation. Then they chased them out of farming by selling farmers subsidised tractors. Now,they want the farmers not to use them in a native sport. There are only two victims here- The bulls and the farmer. The bulls are streaming steadily to slaughter.
The same people who own foreign dogs, showcase them in dog shows, feed them with imported food want to have their say on a native breed of animals they don't own or have any direct stake interest. Strange are the ways of urban society.
Get real, my country people.
T.R. Shashwath
We've decided to live in a society with certain common laws. The village, or even a single state, or for that matter the city, can't contravene that. Certain principles are universal. At least with respect to his world. Your village needs to fit into the whole. Freedom isn't limitless.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula
When prices of commodities go up outside India, export of agricultural produce is banned. When prices go up in India, imports are opened up.
3 lac farmers have committed suicide in the last 20 years. Hell, one even hung himself on live TV when the PM was speaking in Delhi.
Our land, water already grabbed. 50 million people displaced internally due to big dams. Millions forced to migrate under distress and toil as unskilled construction labor in the cities.
Where did the compassion and morality go?
This country is built for the upper caste English educated male, preferably North Indian. Rest progressively are lower, much much lower.
11Komakkambedu Himakiran, Shyamala Sanyal and 9 others
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Yeah, sure... Whataboutery is not an argument. If we need to work on multiple fronts, we'll do so. You haven't addressed the basic argument, and you go off on random tangents. That's because you *cannot* address the basic argument.
Nothing is an argument if it doesn't suit your style?
You said something about common laws. Answer my first point about exports and imports. Is that a free market system?
Is there any other field/industry where that happens?
It's not an argument if it goes off on tangents and doesn't address the fundamental question.
Those tangents, we'll address independently.
You are the one who said something about common laws. I gave you a glaring example of an anomaly in that common law system.
Are you even paying attention? I said we have decided as a society to abide by laws. Not that everything is hunky dory about those laws. We can try to get them changed, but once they're made, we abide by them.
You can't get the law changed, and the sport you want goes against it. You've tried since 2007 to argue that it doesn't and you've failed. So now, you come back and say "it's an unfair law because there's something wrong with the free market system"
Read the history of the case. There was nothing illegal about the sport. These groups went to the SC and got it banned and TN passed the TNRJ in 2009.
Not happy with that, Bulls were included into the performing animals list, a list of wild animals by Jairam Ramesh after lobbying by these groups and with the help of Hemamalini. So the law was changed by three groups to make the sport illegal.
You said something about our country having common laws. I just gave an example of how it is not so. If you can't get that, pay more attention and read what you said and what I replied again.
Farmers are dying . We still have enough food for the country even though people are starving . What when the number of farmers fall below a certain critical point .
Then we will be truly good insecure .right now food security is a bogey to be used for pushing GM and Monsanto etc
We have enough. We need to manage better .
Not go chasing chimeras
I fully agree with you. Let us brainstorm on this issue and find a way to help the poor farmer. Micro-financing the farmer at low interest rates with a recovery of the loan after a long period, perhaps may be one solution. Our Finance Minister has no idea about easing the situation of farmer when there is a drought or market downfall. Non taxation of agriculture is only for rich, politicians and bureaucrats to convert their black money in to white. Think on the lines of Micro-financing and free education of children with rationing as a first step to ease the situation of the Farmer.
There was a commitment made by Mr Modi on MSP
Aparna
, I did not like the tone or thought in this: "This country is built for the upper caste English educated male, preferably North Indian. Rest progressively are lower, much much lower." Can you explain? With these thoughts, I think it is better for all educated to run away from this country, the country will never accept her own. Divisive seems to be a state of mind of most.
Whenever you criticise anything she believes in, you're an "upper caste English educated North Indian male". It's just another form of dehumanising the opposition so you don't have to listen to their arguments.
The English educated live in this country only notionally.
It is they who don't accept the outside Indian reality .
They mostly live in
DELUSION DECEIT DENIAL.
They have abandoned the country to its decay . Isolated from reality . Parasites
The coconuts. Brown outside and white inside. They are here to derive the best for themselves, and when they have timeit is to moralize to us brownies.
Again, the same attacks... Dehumanising the opposition as "coconuts"... You don't have to listen to a coconut, but you do have to when it's a human being speaking.
We are by our very educational system deep alienated from the real India. If you wish to, face it. Otherwise please keep feeling affronted, I have faced it and it has helped me slowly understand the reality of India, as also the reality and vastness ch…
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Empty words... All you're doing is further alienating anyone who could actually help...
Do you know what happened the last time someone speaking like you came to power in a country?
mr. shashwat i suggest that a certian code and decorum be maintained in a discussion. the above post shows a loss of the same. In such case, it is best that one withdraws from the thread/ sub tread.
Well, I'm not the one doing the dehumanising, so...
The laws are biased towards the rich. Any debate there - please look at the subsidy distribution. The laws are biased towards the Hindi belt. Tne English speaking get maximum privilege, employability, and after that Hindi. Other local languages are a far third. There is a current demand that government exmas be conducted in all languages and not just English and Hindi. The modern-educated have inherited the mantle of the Englishman. They are welcome to run away from the country, as has been said in an earlier comment in this thread. They are also welcome to stay, de-school themselves, go to villages, understand the pulse and ethic of the country and work for the country.
Aparna Krishnan
check the long video I posted only yesterday. P Sainath teaching at a German university
Aparna Krishnan, there is hardly any doubt that Government spending is urban centric and tilted heavily towards the haves. This can be confirmed by the simple choice of words - while "subsidies" remains a dirty word as they go to he poor (or at least are supposed to go to the poor), "incentives" remains a good and positive word as they go to businesses. Nobody asks Government to increase subsidies, but all lobbies ask for increase in incentives
could you give some details on how the budget is diverted towards the haves
Rajesh Pandey
.
I agree with the second part of your statement, but not really the first; the poor, urban or rural are demonised. Rich rural farmers still get subsidies, most recently in the promotion of the idea of agribusiness...
But, the question you have been raising Aparna Krishnan about allowing a traditional practice, is difficult to comprehend for many urbanites whose sense of right or wrong is conditioned by the urban-centric education they had (me included), which looks down upon Jallikattu, but loves Bull-running of Spain and feels privilegd in rubbing shoulders with the rich and famous in a race course.
"which looks down upon Jallikattu, but loves Bull-running of Spain and feels privilegd in rubbing shoulders with the rich and famous in a race course."
Personally, I find all three abhorrent.
Rajesh Pandey
, the problem is in the upper class even seeking to have an opinion on the rural class which they are alienated from, and which they do not have any real intention of understanding. Simply moralizing because they are richer and know English !! And suffer from a deep superiority complex that imo needs treatment.
I respect you for being an exception T.R. Shashwath ji.
Don't assume that I get my morals from only my english education - Kant informs, but so do the Upanishads. In fact, the Upanishads inform Kant, so...
Tradition is important, but only as a prior. That something is traditional is a good place to start, a reason to investigate and see whether there's a reason behind it, but after that point, it should be about logic, ethics, rationality and evidence. Tradition can't be a trump card.
let the traditional people decide the bounds of traditions. let the modernists decide the bounds of modernity (polluted rivers. leaching landfills, cattle killed by grazing on plastic garbage heaps ...). fair enough ? or would you insist on policeing the traditionists also, over and above your modern spaces ?
Not over and above, but equally... If plastic garbage heaps are a problem, abhorrent practices in the name of tradition are equally so. The existence of one problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to solve the other.
I reject your division between tradition and modernity.
my point is that urban dwellers understand and are responsible for their spaces. nobody invited them to carry their moralities into our villages. well, if they insist, they can. the while man also carried the same burden of civilizing the natives.
I reject that point entirely. You seem to believe that there's some kind of fundamental difference between urban dwellers and rural folks. That's untrue. At the heart of it, everyone is a human being. Psychology doesn't change because you live in a different place. Everyone has something to learn from everyone else.
The problem is that you attempt to reject every single lesson that modern life has for tradition. Which is as specious an argument as saying that all villagers are benighted savages who need to be civilised.
It's said that the most zealous fundamentalist is often the convert. You're acting like that convert.
All i ask is that people not comment on a culture and civilization they do not understand. Have you accepted Hima's invite to come to Madurai, see the arens, talk to the local people. If not, please lay off the moralizing game. We are not interested in sermons.
Enough people have gone to Madurai, seen the arenas, talked to the local people and shot videos. What is my going there going to change?
2 people from AWBI. Again, from a group that is not neutral but opposing Jallikattu. Their evidence is always suspect. We demand a commission of inquiry which should meet stakeholders.
You could ask for that in court, right? It's not like orders are final...
For some reason, the proponents were more interested in dubious legal methods than in countering the evidence presented.
Let me throw you a bit of a bone at this point... The court observed that "Even the ancient culture and tradition do not support the conduct of Jallikattu or Bullock cart race, in the form in which they are being conducted at present. Welfare and the well-being of the bull is Tamil culture and tradition, they do not approve of infliction of any pain or suffering on the bulls, on the other hand, Tamil tradition and culture are to worship the bull and the bull is always considered as the vehicle of Lord Shiva. Yeru Thazhuvu, in Tamil tradition, is to embrace bulls and not over- powering the bull, to show human bravery. Jallikattu means, silver or gold coins tied to the bulls horns and in olden days those who get at the money to the bulls horns would marry the daughter of the owner. Jallikattu or the bullock cart race, as practised now, has never been the tradition or culture of Tamil Nadu."
The operative words being "in the form in which they are being conducted at present". I do know that in many villages, it's not organised as a blood sport. In speaking to friends from Madurai, as well my knowledge of Tanjore district (which is the only place I have actual direct knowledge of), bulls are merely let loose and pretty much allowed to stretch their feet before being brought back. I think that is the ancient form the court refers to.
Can you guarantee a return to that older tradition the court refers to? That might be a test the court would be willing to accept.
Dubious legal methods? Pray tell me what they are?
When bulls are put in a list of wild animals, was it not dubious legal methods?
On what basis has the court decided that it's not the same form as before. Has it given any anecdotal evidence to back it's observation.
The same court also observed the event has no religious significance, when each and every single event is associated with a temple festival and cannot be randomly conducted. Temple bulls are the first to be let out after prayers by the priests and players don't touch it as a mark of respect for the host village. Players undergo a 15 day fast where they abstain from smoking/drinking and are also celibate.
Some of the violations or cruelty as they say it, observed by the court and accused by AWBI are a result of the regulations they formulated in the first place.
"Dubious legal methods? Pray tell me what they are?" - an ex-post-facto executive meddling in the rules? Not even an ordinance? All in the service of populist brownie points just before a crucial election? Overriding the court's authority? Come on, you know what they are.
"When bulls are put in a list of wild animals, was it not dubious legal methods?" - two points.
First, the list was of animals that should not be used for performance under Sec. 22(ii) "as a performing animal, any animal which the Central Government may, by notification in the official gazette, specify as an animal which shall not be exhibited or trained as a performing animal." Nowhere does it say anything about the list being of wild animals only. Personally, I'd press for adding the parakeets used by kili josiyars to the list - wings clipped, and lives spent in a small cage.
Second, even if I accept that argument, it does not trump the court's logic about Section 11 - general cruelty, or Section 3 - the duties of a custodian/owner.
This was the final bit of the court's order:
"We, therefore, hold that AWBI is right in its stand that Jallikattu, Bullock-cart Race and such events per se violate Sections 3, 11(1)(a) and 11(1)(m)(ii) of PCA Act and hence we uphold the notification dated 11.7.2011 issued by the Central Government, consequently, Bulls cannot be used as performing animals, either for the Jallikattu events or Bullock-cart Races in the State of Tamil Nadu, Maharashtra or elsewhere in the country."
You'll see that they only *uphold* the 11.7.2011 rules, they don't rely on them. The validity of those rules is one of the questions they ruled on. Also, look at Sec 11(1)(m)(ii) - "if any person solely with a view to providing entertainment- induces any animal to fight or bait any other animal; he shall be punishable **** (in the case of a first offence, with fine which shall not be less than ten rupees but which may extend to fifty rupees and in the case of a second or subsequent offence committed within three years of the previous offence, with fine which shall not be less than twenty five rupees but which may extend, to one hundred rupees or with imprisonment for a term which may extend, to three months, or with both."
And then at 24. (1)
"Where it is proved to the satisfaction of any magistrate on a complaint made by a police officer or an officer authorized in writing by the prescribed authority referred to in Section 23, that the training or exhibition of any performing animals has been accompanied by unnecessary pain or suffering and should be prohibited or allowed only subject to conditions, the court may make an order against the person in respect of whom the complaint is made, prohibiting the training or exhibition or imposing such conditions in relation thereto, as may be specified by the order."
It is on the basis of these rules that the order was passed.
Please don't waste space here copy/pasting the judgment.
First you are the one who said this.
"For some reason, the proponents were more interested in dubious legal methods than in countering the evidence presented."
What are you referring to?
"Dubious legal methods? Pray tell me what they are?" - an ex-post-facto executive meddling in the rules? Not even an ordinance? All in the service of populist brownie points just before a crucial election? Overriding the court's authority? Come on, you know what they are.
haha, an ordinance is legal, the court has merely stayed the notification. All this is within the ambit of the legal system, right? What is dubious about it?
Now let's say an ordinance was passed to remove bulls from the list, would you call that dubious too?
Well, no... Why was that not done?
Answer: it would still be against Sections 3 and 11. The battle would just have shifted. Also, the government is already being rapped from all sides for ruling too much by ordinance, a power that was originally added for emergencies when Parliament wasn't in session. They had months since the order was passed, so that just puts them on even more shaky ground.
That's for the BJP to answer. They are making a political game out of this. Why do you blame us for that!
I don't... I'm saying that after all the antics, the answer is still no for now...
Just like the Govt being rapped for ordinance route, the courts are being criticized for the collegiate system. They have made many a judicial appointment hereditary.
like most cases the truth lies somewhere in between. When we can get shocked by the…
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If you don't blame us, what do you make of this statement then?
" the proponents were more interested in dubious legal methods" who are the proponents you are referring to?
Whoever appealed to centre and state governments to "uphold Tamils' honour" or whatever other nonsense...
see...there is no need to dismiss their cultural ethos. They see it as honor and valor. Our take on it might be different and critical, but should never be demeaning.
I feel, why we city folks sitting thousands of Kilometres away, have such strong opposition to a traditional practice, when we have plenty of urban malpractices to worry about.
Mr. Shashwat. this is my wonderment. Rajesh, I can only put it down to the itch to 'civilize the brownies'.
Because whataboutery is not an argument?
I have an opinion because I care about reducing suffering. And why do you assume I'm silent about urban malpractice?
how many times does one have to say the same thing to you. Please stick to correcting that which is within your understanding and your territory. Otherwise it is unsolicited interferance.
If you are going to take this stance, shall I quote this to you every time you make another post about how the urbans are so evil? Please stick to your village?
But I won't, because we learn from each other, and our lives affect others' lives. I'm not an isolationist.
Aparna has seen both worlds intensely. So her take has much more of a credibility.
You are speaking from propaganda of animal welfare groups incl the videos and from the judgment. Be fair now. Engage with stakeholders and then comment.
Responsible opinions can only come from sincere engagement. Otherwise the comments are irresponsible at best, and mischeivous at worst.
T.R. Shashwath
"Aparna has seen both worlds intensely. So her take has much more of a credibility. " - well, she tends to be biased against anything modern, and I've found her unreliable on some of those issues. So I apply a correction factor. That's not to put her down btw. Everyone has their biases. It's part of being human.
"You are speaking from propaganda of animal welfare groups incl the videos and from the judgment." - I'm speaking from evidence presented in court. Any counter-evidence can be presented *to* court. By people who have some knowledge of animal psychology and fear psychosis.
Again, I don't question that you love your cattle. But like a mother who loves her children can still make bad decisions because of preexisting biases, I think you're taking decisions that are not in their best interests. Then, it becomes society's problem, not just yours.
Did you know the Union Govt filed an affidavit in the court stating it will remove bulls from the list? That wasn't accepted by the judge. Why so?
The judge wasn't keen on our arguments. He said why do you need these cattle? why can't you go for crossbreeds that give milk? Now I don't see why he would argue in that way. During the hearing conducted from Feb-Apr, he shot down all the arguments. That's why I am saying let's not stick to the judgment for our debate.
The AWBI said it had no plans for rehabilitation of the bulls. Why didn't society make it it's problem then?
T.R. Shashwath
yes. Sincerity is not just being well meaning. The required focussed work is required - in this case engageing with a rural community very different in ethos and values from the urban. Or else one stays silent. as otherwise the mischeif potential is very high.
Jallikattu banned - " because the rural poor are barbabric and torture their animals".
Village madhyasthams (panchayats) banned - "because the rural poor are backward, illierate, ignorant and cannot run their own lives."
Down with urban oppression of villages !
4 Comments
Vigneshwaran RKSpeaking of khap panjayats, how can the execution of sentences that have grievious or fatal outcomes be prevented ? . Or am I missing something about how khap panchayats work?.
Aparna KrishnanThe State makes grevious wrongs. Look at the undertrials waiting for years. And more. Local panchayats can also make grevious wrongs, but in my assessment less so. Crimes by both need to be addressed. And neither can village panchayats be outlawed nor Supreme Courts.
Aparna KrishnanThat which is not intrinsically supreme, needs to give itself those titles !
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