Saturday 22 October 2016

FB Discussions - Castes

October 22, 2015 at 9:18am ·
As an urban dweller 30 years ago, disconnected from roots, I rejected caste. Many years in a village showed my that jatis are part of the mosaic of this land. A community with certain skills and traditions is a jati, and the skills and the norms and the customs are preserved and celebrated therein.

The Malas (SC) mock at the Naidus (Shudras - landed community), and vice versa. That is my village. The issue is the landlessness of the Malas more than anything else.

I think we need to in some real way step out into the real India, and then we understand many many dimensions. And each space may have its own realities and colours also and would need responses in that reality.
 
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar How does ambedkars annihilation of caste, fit into this model?
 
Aparna Krishnan Shashi Enarth - "Leaves me wondering what exactly prompted you to write what you write. The one today on caste structures frankly was appalling. I always thought that no one needs to be an apologist for the inhuman caste system, and the very idea that you can accord even a modicum of justification was heart breaking. What exactly are you trying to convey here, Aparna? Clearly your idea is to not champion for it, but even the mere act of alluding to a positive side cannot possibly take away even a whiff off the repulsive consequences of oppression and indignities that dalits have suffered and I am certain continues to suffer even in the village you write so fondly about. I didnt want to post this on you public page, but I will be OK if you respond publicly. I must confess, some of your lines have left me numb."
 
Aparna KrishnanFor one things jatis can never be wished away - though modernity, with all loss of all traditional skills and knowlege, will definitely reduce its relevence all all move towards an homogenising ladder where the english-speaking, and read-writing community will be the uppermost.  Still, in my village were the Malas to attain the land ownership of the Naidus, i doubt if they would feel any the less. They would not. I agree there could be different flavours in different places.
 
Aparna Krishnan Vijayvithal Jahagirdar, 
1. I think there are two (and probably more) truths.  The realities are different from place to place. I speak from the place I know very closely. 
 
2. Ambedkar for many reasons took on a western understanding and stance on many issues. Partly due to his own social situation as a Mahar of course  There I think certain essentials get lost, and did for him. For me Dharampal's writings reflect my village realities like a mirror. 

Sunny Narang What about this new jati called "academic intellectuals" and "activists " with new icons , just like Basvanna and the Lingayats who in 12th century proclaimed One Universal People ! Humans have always created their own sects , using anything, ethnicity , occupation , religion. And next will be differences of power . 

Sunny Narang And as about rules of marrying within the same jati , majority of communities in every mixed country aka USA marry within their own race . And as all of us know, marriage is about families not just two individuals , so families will prefer some similarities of cultures. Even corporate mergers lead to many failures . Who is anyone to define who marries whom, the activists are in no higher moral position than the so-called jatis themselves . 

Sunny Narang And I personally see nothing wrong in people following their own rules just like any club , as long as they have no inherent power that is not negotiable. 

Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Castes are one thing, caste system is another thing. Tamilnadu is the pioneer of social justice and here the socioeconomic development of SCs are better than the FCs of UP/Bihar/Jharkhand. yet, 97% of all marriages are within the caste.

How do we explain that?

Castes weren't broken down by the Dravidian movement but the perverted caste system was. People need to understand the difference. Reservation, Land Ceiling/ Redistribution, Nationalization of Banks all contributed to this. Basically the hoarding of knowledge, land and capital by the top 3 varnams as per the Varnashramam system.

People who comment on the caste system do so within the comforts of the class system that is rampant in the cities. I see no difference between gated communities/exclusive housing societies/areas in the cities and the Agraharams of the villages. Same can be said about the cheris/colonies of the villages and slums of the cities.

How Dalits were persecuted in some of the villages is similar to how they are persecuted in the slums of the cities. Our bleeding heart liberals get pained by Syria, but will not flinch when Eelam or even mass displacement of 2 lac slumdwellers to Kannagi Nagar happened.

The whole Western development model is pushed by people of the top two Varnams almost exclusively. They have their brand of supporters in the landed communities too.

Neither can we wish away caste nor class. In the villages, atleast the poor of a community can interact with the rich of the same community, does that happen in the cities?
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula As much as I value the traditional knowledge systems and traditions of my caste, I support the same for all castes. If there is a need for change, let it be organic. Again, I say all this from the comfort of being from a dominant landed community that had a good run for close to 800 years all over the South. 

Aparna Krishnan The Malas in my village also would not give up the identity or customs of their caste. They want clear land, resources and equity, of course. But they are certianly not ashamed of their caste. 

Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula "The Malas (Harijans) mock at the Naidus (Shudras - landed community)"

haha, we used to do the same!

Somehow we all want to be identified as Kshatriyas, that's the glamour of the caste system. 

Aparna Krishnan Why do you say that ? The Malas are not seeming to want to be Naidus or anything else. 

Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I meant the Naidus, who are Shudras according to the Varnasharamam, so are almost all communities south of the Vindhyas, but they want to be identified as Kshatriya!

We as kids used to mock that. 

Raghunandan Tr My problem arises when one piece of the mosaic derides the other, and wants the mosaic to be its very own. I like colour, not monochromes. 

Aparna Krishnan Raghunandan Tr, exactly - and that we need to address in every and any way. But to outlaw the jatis as Marx would like to is neither possible, nor imho desirable. In its own organic way and through a myriad questionings it changes.
 
Raghunandan Tr No, nothing should be outlawed, in my opinion. But we must have a culture where we can discuss everything, without resorting to violence and abuse at the slightest provocation. Unfortunately, our political leaders are not showing the way in that respect.
 
Raghunandan Tr Discrimination is partly practiced and partly perceived. And that is the real problem. It is very difficult to distinguish sometimes, between wilful and inadvertent insensitivity and similarly, between real and feigned taking of offence.
 
Aparna Krishnan The debates between Gandhi and Tagore where they differed completely on some issues like the burning of Manchester cloth, and yet maintained the highest levels of rigour and courtsy in debate ... and now when both actions and reactions are utterly superficial and also self centred !



Nitesh Bhasker - I have seen many with high intellect make half-baked arguments against the current reservation policy that seeks to address backwardness on the basis of socio-economic-educational background of caste groups. Reservation as existing today evidently has its many flaws but merely opposing it is not only foolish but exposes a poor understanding other than the anguish that accompanies those arguments. It is interesting to note that an increasing number of people make idiotic arguments on the ‘economic basis of reservations’ without knowing that is not the basis why reservations are provided. Historically, backwardness and exploitation was not on the economic criteria and it had a social cause caste which in India has some racial dimensions too. An economic creamy layer check is in place for other backward classes. A dalit at the bottom of social hierarchy today might be able to achieve an economically robust position and still be socially discriminated or boycotted based on his social position. Not all pro-reservationists favour this concept due to its inherent privilege or identity but because there are hardly any alternatives opposing this unjust status-quo. I am quite bored seeing people bring the economic argument very often without coming to the understanding of either its purpose or more specifically the construct of caste, its historical manufacturers and its present upholders. People enjoy the comfort of an unjust status-quo and scream when the winds of change start blowing. Had caste not been effectively nurtured and sustained through ages, there would be no concept of reservation based on caste identity, nor centuries of exploitation based on caste indentity.
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Caste has always presented two distinct faces- one of unity and the other of discord. Religion does the same. Modern social constructs like 'Nationalism' are no different. Look closely, groupings like IITians, Researchers, writers, Social workers, journalists and even ITProfessionals present the same two faces. Take Trade Unions- Officer's unions, employee unions. It is just the same everywhere. Each social grouping tries to preserve itself, while positioning itself in opposition to the 'Other'. The inclination to self preservation leads one inevitably into conflict with the other. Democracy actually plays between these twin aspects of Trust and Trustlessness between diverse social groups.
Aparna Krishnan

Ramesh Adusumilli

JanumftSaenrlylfh t2piso1n, sho2ounreen0do16 East Brunswick, NJ, United States 
เฐ…เฐกుเฐธుเฐฎిเฐฒ్เฐฒి เฐตాเฐฐి เฐ…เฐญ్เฐฏుเฐฆเฐฏ เฐธంเฐ˜ం - เฐ‡เฐฆి เฐจేเฐจు เฐ•ాเฐฒేเฐœీ เฐฐోเฐœుเฐฒ్เฐฒో เฐ‰ంเฐกเฐ—ా เฐฎా เฐ‡ంเฐŸి เฐชేเฐฐు เฐ•เฐฒเฐตాเฐฐిเฐ•ి เฐธేเฐต เฐšెเฐฏ్เฐฏాเฐฒเฐจే เฐธంเฐ•เฐฒ్เฐชంเฐคో เฐชెเฐŸ్เฐŸిเฐจ เฐธంเฐธ్เฐฅ. เฐฆీเฐจిเฐ•ి เฐธ్เฐซూเฐฐ్เฐคి เฐ•ీ.เฐถే.เฐ…เฐกుเฐธుเฐฎిเฐฒ్เฐฒి เฐ•ృ…
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Narayana Sarma
    , this is a put-in-your-place post ??!
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I mean its a measured response to many of my multiple posts on reservations and religion and caste !
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      No, actually it is exactly in line with what I wrote to Lokayan in- 1995? Naren did its proofreading.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      If Naren was here today, the wisdom we could have drawn on. A wisdom rooted in simplicity and integrity and goodness and a sense of joy has become so rare.
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Aparna Krishnan
       yes. His stance on Caste was not particularly theoretically strong as much as it was emotionally appealing. He tended to believe that the traits people inherited and nurtured over time automatically put them in one of the four castes.. which are like- not escapable. He did not reject caste- even as he worked closely with Dalit Mahasabha.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      No, I do not think that was his take - on inherited traits, I mean. At least as far as he discussed with me. It was more the necessity of jatis, the strength communities give to the members, and the spaces it provides for each to have its differing practices within an overarching morality. And a framework where different knowleges and skills are protected. More on Dharampal's line.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      And I will also support the SC case completely (somehow dont like the dalit word, meaning 'broken'. Eashwaramma, Annasamy Anna and others seem anything but broken ! They are poo, violated, but infinitely strong and generous in a way that puts me to shame), and still stand by the validity of jatis. Why, you see a contradiction ?
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      "Caste or Class ?" This question ruled the left/extreme left/human rights groups for over four decades. Hara gopal and even Balagopal to a great extent actually stood for class (very bold of him, really). Kancha Ilaiah, Kattipadmarao, varavararao and other leaders stood for caste. Naren chose to be the go between. Balagopal was a 'brahmin' and so were the founding fathers of extreme left in AP- they all had to face the wrath ( kidding somewhat ๐Ÿ™‚ ) of the next generation Dalit leaders! The 'class' section of the left was successfully overthrown post Balagopal and Naren.
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Naren's understanding of caste springs from this background. Dharampal, I see, is more like Uma's contribution, not Naren's original.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      "Balagopal to a great extent actually stood for class ", meaning class as the villaian ? And what wrath did they face ?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      And can you elaborate "Naren's understanding of caste springs from this background." ?
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Aparna Krishnan
       Balagopal had to go do his PhD! ๐Ÿ™‚
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      nenu adigindhi edho, nuvvu cheppedi edho.
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Aparna Krishnan
       Traditional Marxist view holds that it is Class that is supreme- something that DETERMINES everything else happening in society, the superstructure. This was seriously questioned in modern times by three groups: 1) Caste 2) Gender 3) Environment
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Aparna Krishnan
       Traditional marxist position meant that Caste was not all that important: Bring about changes in the class structure, Caste automatically falls in place. In organisations grappling with the question of Caste, holding such a view was blasphemy- people like Balagopal still tried doing that!
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I see. And your own understanding ?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      And Naren's ?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      And why did this need boldness ?
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      I subscribe to Traditional Marxism. I think I will be called a Trotskyite 'revisionist' or whatever. I tend to feel that class can not be manipulated. History does not let that happen. In that sense I probably go more 'deterministic' (?) than Marx- but that does not mean anything anyway. Balagopal was a self proclaimed traditional Marxist. Naren was not one. He tried to paddle between Marx and Gandhi. To many in HRF Naren was more a Gandhi than Marx.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      He was like the Indian society itself. Which is all realities, in nuances of the local.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      How do you find the terms patriarchy, feminism etc. Somewhere these sweeping western terms seem problematic to me because they get hidebound and deny local realities which are often grey and also multi-coloured from getting understood and acknowleged. That holds for marxism also for me.
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Sociological frameworks are said to be tools to understand- well- "the social reality". In that sense terms such as patriarchy and feminism and Marxism are tools to comprehend reality, whether local or global. My position is that Marxist view definitely spans across the time frames of Feudal-Capital based societies, which means- about 3-4000 years(? past and future included.) Marxism is a macro-economic view, not to be confused with small-local scale initiatives which "come and go". I tend to see all the present day 'good' initiatives essentially remaining 'isolated', and (at best) slightly delaying the Onward march of Capital. Caste is an issue today, but it will be resolved eventually, only to promote 'development'. Patriarchy is an issue today, but it will also be resolved some day, only to promote 'development'. And this process of conflict-and-resolution goes on till that 'developement' destroys more and more societies, creating more and more marginalised, till everyone who get battered by its ugly wheels rise against it and put a stop to it.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      And does your Marxism question development ?
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      'development' is 'Capitalism'. You Doubt it?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      But industrilization itself is problematic. And marx has said sharp things about villages and rural economies. Which in my understanding is the only way.
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      My earlier line- "Marxism was seriously questioned in modern times by three groups: 1) Caste 2) Gender 3) Environment". And Marxism goes much beyond Marx the individual. "Industrialization itself is problematic"- true, it is. But the world could not but move in that direction- don't you see the power of (capitalistic?) development there?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      I know. So you are saying that were capital shaken up, industrilization itself would topple and one would move towards gram swaraj ?
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Not simple math for sure. People in France, USSR, China,.. and several other places tried moving away from the then established form of Capitalism, only to find themselves deeper in some other form of Capitalism. It does not deter us however to work for our own brand of revolution right, Gram swaraj or something else? Capitalism (or development, if you please), like caste- is deep in our thinking. Not easy to get rid of it.
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  • Lalitha Guda
    " Each social grouping tries to preserve itself, while positioning itself in opposition to the 'Other'. The inclination to self preservation leads one inevitably into conflict with the other." - if only we could stop feeling unreasonable opposition to the other. Hope we feel secure in our cause, and that causes are indeed for humanity and so do not feel the need to defend our cause at any cost. Rather that we choose to save humanity even if it means to let go of our 'ism'. It seems "Wrong cannot afford defeat and Right can." -Rabndranath's words I think. When Wrong is pushed to a corner, in the need to defend itself it goes to extremes. Hope each of the various communities have the guts to accept wrongs within them and let go of them.
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  • Rahul Banerjee
    competing with other social groups is one thing and oppressing them for centuries on end quite another.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Yes, as far as SC goes. Otherwise its different castes each feeling superior and making fun of the other. And like it or hate it, its bart of the fabric. The utter perversion of the avarna status is what needs to be corrected. And if addressing that can only be done by opposing caste - I'm not so sure - then so be it.
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    • Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
      Rahul Banerjee
       Agree with you there. But in wars of this order, individual groupings are thought to be essentially amorphous. There are ups and downs- like Buddhism's ups and downs spanned at least ten-fifteen centuries. And in these long spans of time the nature of social groupings and the nature of oppression also could change terribly..
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Narayana Sarma
       - The untouchabiility in our ancient culture ? Which has stayed entrenched to day The Balijas and Reddys and Naidus and Doras can curse or love each other for all I care ! These jatis are simply groupings which rise and fall. But untouchability has stayed firm.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      But would you see standing by caste and and also being ready to give up anything to uproot untouchability as contradictory ? Naren didnt. I dont.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Narayana Sarma Ghadiyaram Venkata
       Paanch saal baad ... and the gram swaraj dreams have moved further away into the distance...
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  • Aparna Krishnan
    Anyway with caste based occupations wiped away by a hegemonizing schooling, and intercaste marriages becoming more the norm in the educated community, its a matter of time I think before it weakens. For better or for worse. The dalit issue will however have to be taken by the horns, and there is no time to lose. Enough time has been lost.




This is a sad thing to admit, but I need to table it. In the light of discussions on reservations. The issue is deeper and sadder.
When I was studying in college, one of our classmates was seen as a quota student, and we all subtly, and unconcsiously even, looked down on him. The fact that he spoke English haltingly put him on a different social strata. We were snobs in that fluent English marked a camaraderie.
We were a gentler crowd, and mostly girls, and were always polite, but stayed away from being really friendly. What such subtle demeaning can do to honest, hard working youth who have suffered all odds to reach where they do, god alone knows. What sense of bitterness, or what sense of worthlessness it can create.
All I can say in my defence is that I did not know better the when I was in my late teens, and I was a product of a social reality of middle/ upper middle class schooling. Now when I think of reserved students in IITs I wonder what they would face - and whether it is worth their existing in a space where the other ihabitants consider themselves the creme de la creme.
The SCs carry many many burdens.
Komakkambedu Himakiran, Vigneshwaran RK and 18 others
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  • Himanshu Rai Sharma
    In IIT the identities are not disclosed as such . and the discrimination is not as much as it is hyped about , recently our foundation has funded two students at IIT roorkee and I found them quite confident , even when I was at IIT Delhi as a post grad student the hostel environment was good , we never went into caste matters and there were several intercaste marriages and we came to know about only then . all of them eventually got married too
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      Good if so. But my village children have faced different realities in college.
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  • Sudha Gupta
    When young and going to school and college did not know the word Dalit or Obc etc we knew only Christian,Muslim and Jews and Hindus They were my best friends While teaching for 10years I did not know whose who . Now reading newspapers TV and your account of village have started knowing I agree with Himansu raiji
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  • Narasimhan Lalitha
    In TamilNadu alone, we had an entire community of houses burnt , we had a young engineering student whose killing is still a mystery with perpetrators not convicted, we had a honest senior police officer who committed suicide whilst investigating the case! To say the least there is no simple solution. In my view they should be aware of all the facilities that they have access to and the people on top of the pyramid from within them should also take steps to give a helping hand too! They also need to be aware that they don't allow themselves to become someone else's pawn and focus more on what their end goals are. Otherwise I sincerely believe that every good citizen shuns such discrimination and is more than willing to contribute to their upliftment.
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  • Zakeena Seethi
    I remember my son n his friends making fun thier classmate for his poor English. I was very disappointed at my son and gave him a mouthful.
    But is doing away with English an answer? In a country which doesnt have one national language, isnt it better to opt for English than Hindi?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      We need to move to local languages. Only then will ordinary people come into their own strengths. English out ! Hindi out !
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    • Zakeena Seethi
      When the world is moving towards an idea of global village, how can we hold on to our own language alone?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      For the sake of those who will get more disadvantaged if their languages get more marginalized. Towards that we need to fight. Yes, most battles seem losing battles - but we need to fight. Who knows.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      To say 'teach them english' is a non starter ma. They will forever stay our clerks !!
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    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Local language or mother tongue builds on creative instincts. English or any alien language destroys the same. Any language can be learnt provided medium of education is in local language or mother tongue.
      What the Germans or Japanese have achieved, we never will be able to, as our system deracinates and unskills.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      And anyway if we need to empower local people, we need to stop demanding they prove themselves in an alien language at the least. If we want to be a country we need build up a federation of different languages. It is possible if the will is there. Its not rocket science.
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    • Zakeena Seethi
      I dont know why i feel that the students of malayalam medium of my generation know better English than English medium students if today. Many of my colleagues (i studied in vernacular medium) speak or write in English very well. May be it has to do with not having too many subjects in schools ( computer studies n the like) and the reading culture we had then. Now i see very few children reading outside their textbooks..
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    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Zakeena Seethi
      : What you mention is true....When primary education is in mother tongue, the ability to pick up a second language increases.
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    • Zakeena Seethi
      If it is true, then why fight against English? They too can be taught...rt?
      Btw, im an adult educator. I teach them spoken English.... Through hindi.
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    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      English and any other language has to kept at bay till the kid learns in mother tongue. When we have schools that punish if kids speak in their mother tongue, we have to take the fight to English to achieve middle ground.
      This is how the corporate cartels of modern India treat native languages!
      Will they dare to say this in Germany or France?
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    • Zakeena Seethi
      Germany has a national language..
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    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Kannada is the national language of Karnataka...Nationalism itself is a concept that came from language groups aligning together.
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      In India making one language primary will work against other communities. If Hindi or English is made primary, the children of my village whose primary anchor is Telugu will suffer a handicap - and god knows they have enough handicaps already. Same for children in Oriya or Bengali villages. In a situation like this a federation with all languages gives equal weight is what will work.
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    • Zakeena Seethi
      But it is so weird there. Minorities can open schools only in their own language. Muslims can have only urdu medium schools n christians in English. Karnataka has the devious distinction of having too many lingos. In Mangalore christians speak konkani, shettys n Rais speak tulu, brahmins -shenoys- speak a different konkani, muslims speak urdu, other hindus have kannada.
      This language difference could be one reason for such non-unity among people. Mangalore is a melting pot of religious-casteist tension.
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    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      nothing devious about that! Isn't that the diversity that we all boast about?
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      That is india - the diversity. How will my village children have a level playing field if they need to express in a non telugu space. Given the reality of infinite handicaps and poverty that is India. An NRI may suggest that all village childen be taught in English medium. Apart from my other objections to that - the sheer impracticality is evident. In AP all govt schools have an English-medium-section ! Come and see it !! Anchor local languages, give place in employment etc. for local languages. And over and above that teach other languages also.
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    • Zakeena Seethi
      I dont know... I feel language n culture are closely related. When different communities in one place have different lingo, culture etc, instead of appreciating it, i feel there is a fear of the other, fear of the unknown. I could feel it in karnataka... Not in kerala or TN
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      • 5y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      The fear I think is that the local people may lose space. Assure the local people space in local employment, local existance. Thats fair enough. This is a poor country ma, with people struggling to survive. That causes fear.


  • Andhuvan Dhanesh
    In India it existed and still existing....but so called educated or neo-modern people will say it is a backward idea! Jatis.
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    • 4y
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    • Aparna Krishnan
      please explain.
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      • 4y
    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      Jatis are basically endogamous units and they hold their own profession/career.
      When the people of same Jati marry they are already of same profession and posses its associated knowledge.
      The husband and wife has no problem doing their profession together. Marriage and career are combined naturally.
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    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      Not to be confused with todays form of Jati system which is just sticking to the practice of marrying within the Jati alone and forget the other duties, profession, discipline, traditions and practices.
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    • Jagga Lalgudy
      Dhanesh Rathinasamy Gounder
       All above explanations - varma kalai adi!! I have always been thinking in the same lines and you have spelt it. Also, training in skills thro a very systematic and long term remembering style with memorising or taking notes and referring back and with minimal cost w.r.t time and materials. All unlike sweat factory conditions of the present day and calling themselves luxury products - benefiting only the designers with super normal profits used to fund hoodlum parties where drugs are used and women trafficked, debased and prostituted.
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      • 4y
    • Vidhya Subramaniyan
      So we can tell a man of toilet cleaner 'jati' ,and his generation to clean our sewage right ? N his wife too can help scooping sewage .
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      • 3y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Vidhya Subramaniyan
       Untouchability is a crime against god and man. But apart from that perversion, the jati system was where various livlihoods like the potter's weaver's etc were preserved and maintained. Learning of such sustainable skills, which we like to wax eloquent about today, happen in a community of practitioners only.
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      • 3y
    • Vidhya Subramaniyan
      Aparna Krishnan
       is it important to a potter to preserve the pottery which sells lamps for 2 rs and beg the educated 1 lakh per month people to buy it? if i feel pottery is fascinating ill go and learn from experienced.
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      • 3y
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    • Vidhya Subramaniyan
      what about ' arundhati' community? im not telling on about untouchability at all. its about being impoverished because of family history . those who wants to preserve jati are benefitted by it , not suffered.
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      • 3y
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    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      I don't think any Jati is specifically designated to clean our toilets as per our traditions or sastras. And I believe no such open roadside/street toilets existed in the pasts. People had large unused lands on the out skirts of villages, residential areas or farmlands where they used to excrete and nature's scavengers acted on them.
      So called toilet cleaner 'Jati' has recently originated when the cities spurted like something and they had no proper planning for such arrangements like modern toilets.
      So we cannot relate it to ancient practices. It must be viewed as how modern ideology adopted an ancient practice of Jati for its adventure into this land. I mean here the modern economics concept of classes chose the under previlaged Jatis to carry out this less productive or low class job in its view.
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      • 3y
    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      @Vidhya Subramaniyan You know? people restricted themselves in accepting a new invention or product into their lives until recently for the past 50 years or so. Now we have been all accepting whatever the west imposes on us!
      The set up in the past was such that, every one's life relied on each other and everyone was sufficient within their range called villages. They had to obey that order so that they can sustain forever without any dependence on an external entity.
      So by that order or rules, you have to buy non other than that potter's mud pot made in his small cottage. The mud pot is no harm to the environment and it breaks often after a period of time. This gives the potter and his family a constant revenue and a settled life in that village. This family continues to inherit the knowledge of making pots and the job security is ensured for the whole of his descendants. The whole village depends on his service generation after generation. And he gets his own privileges like rightful piece of land to build his house, food from the cultivators, clothes from the weavers, temple rights and so on for the services he is offering to that village.
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      • 3y
    • Vidhya Subramaniyan
      Dhanesh Rathinasamy Gounder
       I agree the greatness of past life , which is sustainable n simple . i'm talking on livelihood of those people now and in future.
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    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      With Arundhathiyars' case, I have heard some stories of the origin of their Jati. They are from the same stock that of Kapu - Naidu community(Thottiya Naickers we call them). They are basically a pastoral community raising cowherds to make their life. Once the ancestors of these now Arundhathiyars killed a cow. Killing a cow was such a sin according our culture, tradition and knowledge. That too being a cow herder it is the greatest of the greatest sin(can be called -'against the professional ethics' in modern terms). For that reason they were ruled to move out of their Jati and live outside the borders of their own relatives and cousins and became a new Jati. They were called Sakkili in common language(Origin: Shatkuli - Sanskrit. Meaning: Killer of cow)
      This is one such example of how the strict rules prevailed in our villages to keep the momentum of the system go flawless in line with the Dharma and Karma.
      May be today the modern people don't believe in Dharma and Karma. But our ancestors did. They believed that the Karmas pass through birth after birth of the souls, as well as generation after generation to the progenies. In that case the villagers had to perform their duty of guarding the Neethi(justice) and hence the Dhanda.
      Dharma provided the Dhanda(punishment) that which by itself acts as a salvation method for their Karma. The involved victim being a cow I think I don't need to explain how people were serious about it.
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    • Vidhya Subramaniyan
      you havent answered my question . that is their livelihood now and in future... not just them many people .
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      • 3y
    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      Only that they lost their privilege of being one with their ancestral herding cousins and other higher denominations and privileges associated by being one with them. But they have their own livelihood and privileges in their respective villages. They have not lost it.
      If it comes to the urban life atrocities I would say - yes, they need more attention and care to make them climb the urban life style ladder. Because when compared to the privileged communities who own land, blessed with access to good education and services, yes these people need more support.
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      • 3y
    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      But then you need to remember I am not standing by the modern urban idealogies that lack sustainability. ๐Ÿ™‚ I just added a point to balance it(in line with that modern ideology).
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    • Andhuvan Dhanesh
      That is.... in my view a landed community guy graduating as a software engineer, sit before a computer and a Dalit guy learning the same and sit before the same, as software professionals is no different.
      They are now to be considered as part of modern Urbanites with some extra memories and privileges of their ancestors or themselves that had provided some help or denied some access to that urban territory. Once they have entered that urban part, it is of no use to that ancestral part. Because they are of different dimensions - one focusses on sustainability of all beings through ages while the other focusses on deriving heavily out of the future and the other section.
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