Who decided that the scientific temper is superior to simple living sustained by simple faiths ? The scientists ?
Who decided that rationality is only enshrined in modern science ? The scientists ?
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Faith has its uses: giving a sense or security in an unpredictable world, installing confidence and making life easier. But, if humans depended on faith alone, we probably would not have emerged from primitive ways of living. Such a way of living may be holistic, eco-friendly and down-to-earth but all the fine points of civilization might not have emerged: literature, philosophy, humanities, sciences and technology. That path is through rational thought. Philosophical finessee and scientific temper are only its most prominent expressions. Down-to-earth living in proximity to nature and enjoying finer aspects of life through higher fields of learning - both are required. Each should balance the other.
Who decided that rationality is only enshrined in modern science ? The scientists ?
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Faith has its uses: giving a sense or security in an unpredictable world, installing confidence and making life easier. But, if humans depended on faith alone, we probably would not have emerged from primitive ways of living. Such a way of living may be holistic, eco-friendly and down-to-earth but all the fine points of civilization might not have emerged: literature, philosophy, humanities, sciences and technology. That path is through rational thought. Philosophical finessee and scientific temper are only its most prominent expressions. Down-to-earth living in proximity to nature and enjoying finer aspects of life through higher fields of learning - both are required. Each should balance the other.
Aparna Krishnan My only contention is that moderity or modern scientific
thinking is not the sole purveyor of logical rational thought.
Traditionally there have been many rational and logical processes well
established. When modern science claims to be the most rational of
systems, and also the benchmark of all assessment, I object.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram It
is definitely not the only benchmark. We had our own powerful logical
systems in India and Indian logic is significantly different from the
Western logic. One has to read just Samkhya, Mimamsa and Nagarjuna's
writings to get a taste of how powerful
our logic was. But the problem is: our philosophical development
stagnated centuries before where as the Western logic is refined by its
philosophers every century, including the current one. We also have to
notice what is controlling the world now. If we have to play this game
well (I guess we have no choice, given the global state of economies)
then we need to master both. In any case - Western logic or Indian
logic - faith takes a secondary place. It is a common observation that
one who reads the Upanishads and Darshana Shasthras usually ends up
losing his blind faith and beomes refined in his beliefs.
Vidyasankar Sundaresan Not the scientists. It was the politicians. In India, it started with Nehru elevating "scientific temper"
to the status of a religious goal. Today, everyone in India thinks they
alone have it and everybody else is wrong. The truth is that almost
nobody truly has it! Just like religious goals of "salvation" by
believing in a unique savior/prophet.
Aparna Krishnan And the proponents of science are the most fanatical of all messiahs ! And the most bigoted also.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Those who know the philosophy of science are not dogmatic. As Charles Bukowski said, "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.”
Aparna Krishnan Find me the number of scientists who are willing to openly explore the mantram traditions in villages !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram For that you need a combination of a scientist + mythologist + anthropologist + psychologist. That is the problem. There are those who integrate across disciplines, but they are less in number.
Aparna Krishnan no, it just needs humility and openness. education damages that. higher education kills that !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram That is misunderstanding. More the education, typically more the liberation. Humility develops as education builds up. Good reading induces and enhances empathy.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram By education, I don't mean degrees but the education in the real sense.
Aparna Krishnan i have lived in an 'illiterate' village and i know the depth of understanding there as opposed to in the 'temples of modern learning'. The latter are both blinkered and also supercilious.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram May be you did not face the genuinely educated who have empathy.
Aparna Krishnan i have seen both worlds, closely. perspectives of the educated get narrower and narrower.
Aparna Krishnan perspective and understanding comes first. empathy without these two is dangerous !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Perspective and understanding are part of the education.
Aparna Krishnan it is learnt in villages and streets. Not in books.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Hmmm... Guess you have not met scientists who are also well-versed with humanities. This separation of sciences and humanities is artificial. Originally, philosophy contained all. Perspective and understanding are the essential part of humanities.
Aparna Krishnan Villages and street corners.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Karl Marx spent most of his life time in libraries, studying and doing research. He changed the perception of common man so significantly that entire working class and the trade uninons fighting for their rights still owe some thing to his thought. His
influence on the lives of common men is greater than any other thinker
in the world. Whether his philosophy needs revision is a different
question. Books can and do change the world.
Aparna Krishnan When the reader is rooted in the ground realities. In villages and street corners.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Faith
has its uses: giving a sense or security in an unpredictable world,
installing confidence and making life easier. But, if humans depended
on faith alone, we probably would not have emerged from primitive ways
of living. Such a way of living may be
holistic, eco-friendly and down-to-earth but all the fine points of
civilization might not have emerged: literature, philosophy, humanities,
sciences and technology. That path is through rational thought.
Philosophical finessee and scientific temper are only its most prominent
expressions. Down-to-earth living in proximity to nature and enjoying
finer aspects of life through higher fields of learning - both are
required. Each hould balance the other.
Aparna Krishnan My
only contention is that moderity or modern scientific thinking is not
the sole purveyor of logical rational thought. Traditionally there have
been many rational and logical processes well established. When modern
science claims to be the most rational of systems, and also the
benchmark of all assessment, I object.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram It
is definitely not the only benchmark. We had our own powerful logical
systems in India and Indian logic is significantly different from the
Western logic. One has to read just Samhya, Mimamsa and Nagarjuna's
writings to get a taste of how powerful
our logic was. But the problem is: our philosophical development
stagnated centuries before where as the Western logic is refined by its
philosophers every century, including the current one. We also have to
notice what is controlling the world now. If we have to play this game
well (I guess we have no choice, given the global state of economies)
then we need to master both. In any case - Western logic or Indian
logic - faith takes a secondary place. It is a common observation that
one who reads the Upanishads and Darshana Shasthras usually ends up
losing his blind faith and beomes refined in his beliefs.
Aparna Krishnan Till
one reaches the end of gnana yoga, one needs the anchor of faith also.
The human mind needs the idol to focus on. Or the non-idol !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Whether
one adopts Gnana Yoga or Bhakti yoga depends one's personality. We
typically choose what we like. This rarely changes when some one or
some book or some incident opens our eyes to a different possibility.
Bur rare it is, indeed.
Aparna Krishnan According
to the Geeta the final point is reached through Gnana Yoga alone. But
to reach there one first needs to be a Karma Yogi, learning continous
detached action. Bhakti Yoga encompasses the whole of Yoga as an
attitude and is not a path in itself. The division into Karma Yoga,
Gnana Yoga and Bhakto Yoga as alternative paths is wrong.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram I
don't buy that argument that Bhakti yoga is needed as a first step to
Gnana Yoga for everyone. There are people who start with Gnana Yoga and
proceed only in that path. I guess many of the Upanishadhic seers
belong to this track.
Aparna Krishnan Karma
Yoga is a step to Gnana Yoga. Without that mental training, one is not
equipped for the learnings of Gnana Yoga. Bhakti Yoga is an encompassing
attitude. Anyway this is Geeta as from a deeply respected teacher of
the Vedanta. I do not claim to be any scholar.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Bhagavdgita
is a later formulation and Upanishadic philosophies are earlier
formulations. Typical of any school of thought, earlier formulations
contain more of a spirit of enquiry and later ones are characteristic of
more overbearing formulations. My preference is to the spirit of
enquiry rather than unquestionable final formulations.
Aparna Krishnan np. i'm no scholar. just a student.
Write a reply...
Vidyasankar Sundaresan Not the scientists. It was the politicians. In India, it started with Nehru elevating "scientific temper" to the status of a religious goal. Today, everyone in India thinks they alone have it and everybody else is wrong. The truth is that almost nobody truly has it! Just like religious goals of "salvation" by believing in a unique savior/prophet.
Aparna Krishnan And the proponents of science are the most fanatical of all messiahs ! And the most bigoted also.
Write a reply...
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Those who know the philosophy of science are not dogmatic. As Charles Bukowski said, "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.”
Aparna Krishnan Find me the number of scientists who are willing to openly explore the mantram traditions in villages !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram For that you need a combination of a scientist + mythologist + anthropologist + psychologist. That is the problem. There are those who integrate across disciplines, but they are less in number.
Aparna Krishnan no, it just needs humility and openness. education damages that. higher education kills that !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram That is misunderstanding. More the education, typically more the liberation. Humility develops as education builds up. Good reading induces and enhances empathy.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram By education, I don't mean degrees but the education in the real sense.
Aparna Krishnan i have lived in an 'illiterate' village and i know the depth of understanding there as opposed to in the 'temples of modern learning'. The latter are both blinkered and also supercilious.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram May be you did not face the genuinely educated who have empathy.
Aparna Krishnan i have seen both worlds, closely. perspectives of the educated get narrower and narrower.
Aparna Krishnan perspective and understanding comes first. empathy without these two is dangerous !
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Perspective and understanding are part of the education.
Aparna Krishnan it is learnt in villages and streets. Not in books.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Hmmm... Guess you have not met scientists who are also well-versed with humanities. This separation of sciences and humanities is artificial. Originally, philosophy contained all. Perspective and understanding are the essential part of humanities.
Aparna Krishnan Villages and street corners.
Raghurama Rao Suswaram Karl Marx spent most of his life time in libraries, studying and doing research. He changed the perception of common man so significantly that entire working class and the trade uninons fighting for their rights still owe some thing to his thought. His influence on the lives of common men is greater than any other thinker in the world. Whether his philosophy needs revision is a different question. Books can and do change the world.
Aparna Krishnan When the reader is rooted in the ground realities. In villages and street corners.
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