Saturday, 15 April 2017

Agriculture and Culture and Localization

In my village, the women choose not to go to the local temple when they have their periods. They are not apolegetic, or evasive, and directly say, they cannot come because they have their periods. It is like many modern people may not like going to a temple unbathed. A custom, and a personal choice.
When a child attains puberty, the fact is not hidden, and a small function is conducted, and all of us take sweets for the child over the eleven days, and she is fed well and feted.
Is this patriarchy ? No.
 
Comments
Komakkambedu Himakiran When a girl comes of age, the reason why she is kept isolated is, she is fed a special diet which develops her pelvic bones. Do this in a village setting with some rituals around it, it's frowned upon. 

Many a child birth issue these days are related 
to the giving up of this practice. Now, if we look at this medical quarantine in a modern hospital, no one would complain!

Instead of supporting or opposing, may be we can all spend time undertstanding and then explaining.
 
Aparna Krishnan Totally agree. The derision the emglish educated Indian has for the ordinary Indian, is actually the derision he has for himself.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam i don't see it, what's the relationship between isolation and special diet? hospitals can quarantine people for the good of others, are you calling this quarantine? It might have utility it might not, but in this hatred and rebellion towards all things modern , some originally good intent practices which have turned into a perversion will get shielded some traditions which are harming the individual for satisfying the society will get perpetuated.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Hatred and rebellion towards all things modern? You rebel against the status quo; modernity is not the status quo for the masses. It's the modernists who are actually rebelling in their own way. 

The assumption that modern is good, traditional is bad 
is the biggest letdown in terms of reason. 20-30 years from now, most of what we do now will be "old" and discarded, but not the same with traditions. We love between fads and pass judgment on traditions of the masses which have sustained many a challenge.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran A quarantine is acceptable to us in a modern hospital setting, but we don't get it if done in a traditional way.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam hehe, my question is what are you quarantining her for? If there is legitimate reason for it, quarantine is quarantine. Our problem with tradition is not that it exists, but about the unquestioning loyalty to it by the people. There are thousands of traditions which are good. But over thousands of years some useless and even harmful ones have crept in. So let's question them keep the good ones.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Hormonal changes at that time are reason enough for quarantine. I've already mentioned special diet if given to strengthen the pelvic bones. 

My question to you is how did you figure out which is good and which is harmful? By studying it or by modern perception of it?
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran When people can have faith in modern science which keeps changing every 5 years, why not faith in something that has worked for ages. 
Each community has a different way of doing things and these have evolved over time influenced by agroclimatic zones, occupations, availability of water, variation in crops, etc. 

Each person is different and has inherited a different set of DNA; this is told to us by modern science, yet we have blind faith in a one size fits all treatment!
 
Sailesh Bhupalam i haven't declared anything as harmful, i am asking people to question which is harmful, which is not. on the other hand, you have assumed particular food helps pelvic bones only, i've never heard of such food. hormonal changes don't spread to other people, which is the basis of quarantine. 

But if there is research done on it to prove this good really happens, i will accept immediately. 

science has nothing to do with faith. It's a method. It's a pity that most of us don't understand this, even i was in the same group of people. if science changes every 5 years, we change our opinions with it, because facts change. Believing the same thing for a thousand years when everything around us including the climate has changed doesn't make sense to me. I rest my case 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Haha I've assumed? Now isn't that an assumption on your part. I've talked to elders from various communities about this. 

You've never heard? Don't you know the saying, Katradhu....


Quarantine is not just for communicable diseases; it's to ensure body stays calm and relaxed and away from any pollutants. Same as after pregnancy. 

A sperm fertilizes an egg, has that changed? We've changed the climate especially in the modern industrial revolution period, check the data on that. 

A Nobel prize in medicine was awarded last year for some discovery based on Eastern traditional medicine. Unlike us they are actually doing the research.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam i am all for doing research on indian medicine. 
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Good, by the time we do that, most of the practices would have gone, because of the pressures of the modern world.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam then we should document them first
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran That's what we all want to do, but with limited resources which are spent in warding off dangers to the traditions rather than saving the same. 

Too much power has been given to the English educated elite here. They are behaving like Bulls in a china shop. We are left to pick up after them and salvage what's left.
 
Aparna Krishnan 'Documenting' is another red herring. It will need to be explained in their scientific theory. Otherwise they will call it anecdotal. Otherwise they will demand a double blind study. And the 1.5 people on the field can simply be dancing to their tune.
 
Aparna Krishnan Give self respect, livlihoods, and power back to the people. They understand their cultural practices, and these will be safe. Otherwise if we destroy a people, phusically or mentally, we dont need their 'documented practices' for our googlers, or for some nobel prize aspirants either.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam back from where? they still follow their practices, have all the power to do so.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Not in the face of modernity onslaught. We've broken their economic independence and that's the major reason why they are forced to come out of their societies and adapt to the modern world. Until we address that, we can't change much.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam what's the solution? go back to jajmani system ? where there is a master who will provide grains for all the castes serving him?
 
Aparna Krishnan Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula yes - both recreate their village economy. And junk modern education that in a million different ways tells them that they are backward.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran It was never like that; we need to evolve a hybrid model. Please read the declarations of the Kisan Swaraj Sammelan for starters.
 
Aparna Krishnan And Dharampal's detailed archival information. The books are available online.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam Income guarantee, relief, insurance and other things from government, how will we sustain it without the onslaught of modernity? money cannot be printed indefinitely right, there should be goods ans services produced concomitantly There is an inherent contradiction between economic independence (if you mean that in a gandhian autonomous village republic sense of the term)and modernity. We need interdependence, otherwise we cannot sustain even the present population.
Komakkambedu Himakiran From government? Did you assume it to be a handout? These are social welfare measure that's the duty of a govt that has destroyed our village economy for 66 years now. First step is to bring these amendments in; then we have to look at local economy.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam its not a handout, we could make it a right, but the question is, if someone is not producing the money that government is spending, how long can we sustain it? There is an economic aspect to it. Land gets fragmented with each generations, people depending on agriculture will increase, which is at present about 50%, so who should the government tax? the remaining 50% and they will reduce their efforts because a lot of their money is being taxed. The size of the pie, is limited. That's all i am saying.
Komakkambedu Himakiran The money will come from the 5.32 lac crores in tax writeoffs given to corporates. 
Don't make this a tax payer vs farmer thing; both are fooled by corporates and govt respectively!

Read Devinder Sharma's articles on farmer issues, Sainath's article on this year's budget. You will know what the problem is and who the enemy is. You can find all those links on my timeline.
Sailesh Bhupalam i follow some of them like P sainath. I don't think you are getting what i'm saying, i'm not talking about whether it is possible, i talking about if it is sustainable. When we tax corporates at the maximum, they get out of the country. People go back to farming, Presently we don't have enough land to sustain this population without modern methods of farming. When people have 2 or three children their lands get fragmented, productivity goes down. How long can we feed our population? this is not 30 or 40 cr, this is 127 cr. We have never sustained such high populations in the history of India or mankind without capitalism.
Sailesh Bhupalam The policy is clear although we are struggling to implement it, it is not bringing more people into agriculture, it is bringing more people out of it. We have Rurban mission, onus on manufacturing, skilling farmers to get into industry, easing land leasing and selling to reap economies of scale, support for entrepreneurship. The self sustaining village economies that you speak of cannot sustain this level of population.
Sailesh Bhupalam What we think of as tax writeoffs are calculated based on upper tax limit flexibility given in the parent law. Based on the ground situation, taxmen will increase or decrease effective levels of taxation to increase tax collection. It's not giving up tax. It's following laffer curve. 

Most people see things in silos, it has to fit into a holistic picture. Anyway, good talk. thanks for your time
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Sorry, these are not based on upper tax limit but tax breaks written into policy; please read the Sainath article or look up the budget document annexures. It's recorded as tax writeoffs. 

There you will get your holistic picture.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam thanks for the pointer, i've read them, they are policy levers. the terminology used does not make them anything else.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam holistic picture is answering all my queries instead of just the one 
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Sorry, I didn't see your previous comments as FB on mobile showed the latest comment and I replied to that. Will reply to the rest in a bit.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam Thanks, if you think i'm sort of confrontational in my comments, i apologise, i mean no disrespect, it's just how i talk and i am working on it to be somewhat more presentable
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran 1) When we tax corporates at the maximum, they get out of the country. 

The tax writeoffs have not translated into jobs. Between 2004-2012 only 2.5 million jobs were created that too mostly as unorganized construction labor. 
During the same period 35 lac crores were written off for corporates. where is the RoI?

2) People go back to farming, Presently we don't have enough land to sustain this population without modern methods of farming. When people have 2 or three children their lands get fragmented, productivity goes down. How long can we feed our population? this is not 30 or 40 cr, this is 127 cr. We have never sustained such high populations in the history of India or mankind without capitalism.

Again, this is a myth propagated by agro business. 

http://www.fao.org/family-farming-2014/en/

There has never been a point in history where we didn't have enough food production. It's the diversion of land to cash crops like Opium, Indigo under the British, hoarding of grains during the wars, similar policies of promoting only paddy/wheat/sugarcane/milk/cotton by Indian govts are the reason for food insecurity. 

What is this capitalism spiel? This narrative of local economy being antagonistic to business is bogus and propagated by vested interests. We have always been about enterprise, albeit with sustainability. Neither Keynesian capitalism nor Marxist communism/socialism have ever worked without underlying colonialism or state commandeered labor. 

3) The policy is clear although we are struggling to implement it, it is not bringing more people into agriculture, it is bringing more people out of it. We have Rurban mission, onus on manufacturing, skilling farmers to get into industry, easing land leasing and selling to reap economies of scale, support for entrepreneurship. The self sustaining village economies that you speak of cannot sustain this level of population.

When India joined the WTO in 1995, the unwritten recommendation was to move 400 million people out of our villages. This is the greatest mistake Indian govt have been doing since then. Why should farmers be moved to the cities? So that they end up as construction labor living in slums? The whole agriculture to manufacturing to services model might have worked in the West but what everyone is forgetting or conveniently ignoring is the fact that the West was built on colonialism and for negligible populations when compared to India. 

OECD's recommendations in 2005 state that each country should define it's own model based on local conditions.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran This is what we get when our economic policies are defined by economic advisors schooled in the World Bank/IMF system. This is the slave mentality that is ruining us. 

Since 1991, income disparity has increased; this is a direct consequence of our policies.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam a myth ? population increasing is a myth or 80% farmers in India having less than 4 acres of land is a myth? what happens when they have 2 children? family farming can work with 2 acres? how about half an acre? How is this sustainable?
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran c'mon now, you can do better than that. why cherry pick? I called the propaganda of food insecurity due to fragmentation a myth.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran UN FAO says small farmer agroecological model is the only one that can feed the world. Ask them how that is possible. 

We know how it is possible with natural farming, organic farming, zero budget farming, natural eco farming..integrated farming with livestock. 

That's the reason why we have made specific demands to the govt at the Kisan Sammelan. 

Either you trust us or FAO!
 
Sailesh Bhupalam I just checked FAO website. Family farming is said to be important for nutritional security because they keep traditional knowledge alive. 
But in Indian scenario, 
1> we have millions of farmers in disguised unemployment due to family farming

2> we have millions of others who want work but don't have land, the agricultural labourers of course. 

You can't both say in one line we want Indian solutions for Indian problems and then quote FAO in the next.

Sailesh Bhupalam you are right, let me do better than that

1> tax write offs didn't create jobs, yes that maybe true, but the write offs were done to increase tax collections, which were used in MGNREGA and FSA. This is how policies in India work as far as i am aware, people don't pay taxes if we tax them heavily

2> my mistake, i assumed it was against capitalism

3> it's not about what we did for them through WTO, it's what the people of the villages want. They are voting with their feet in millions to every city in India. Some in distress some for greener pastures. We cannot claim that we know what they want, we have to provide opportunities for better quality of life, not just push them to do farming in the villages with family. 

We have built zero new urban settlements in the last 50 years, what's wrong with stress on manufacturing to bring people out of poverty?
Sailesh Bhupalam 4> everybody knows agriculture is a high risk enterprise. The actuarial calculations about insurance premiums are around 20%. Now that kind of risk where one in every 5 maybe more farmers endure a loss is not for the small farmer who works for subsistence to take on. What's wrong with cooperatives that can do collective corporate farming or even regulated companies doing farming? 

I don't know what your argument is, but the whole argument people give about it creating food insecurity is baseless. If they want to do it, Ambani could buy half the rice produced in India and hoard it. But we can stop it with regulation and other measures.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Will reply tmw. Remind me if I don't!
 
Sailesh Bhupalam sure 
 
Sailesh Bhupalam meanwhile reasons for overestimation for tax expenditure like i said. I remember reading it in a govt document.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=FTYhAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA95...
A tax expenditure is a 'tax break' allowed to a taxpayer or group of taxpayers, for example,…
BOOKS.GOOGLE.CO.IN
 
Komakkambedu Himakiranhttp://www.globalagriculture.org/.../industrial...
http://www.globalagriculture.org/.../industrial...

Facts & Figures

"The vast majority of the world’s farms are small or very small. Worldwide, farms of less than 1 hectare account for 72% of all farms, but control only 8% of all agricultural land. Farms between 1 and 2 hectares account for 12% of all farms and control 4% of the land. In contrast, only 1% of all farms in the world are larger than 50 hectares, but they control 65% of the world’s agricultural land."
http://www.fao.org/3/a-i4036e.pdf

"There are more than 570 million farms in the world. More than 90% of farms are run by an individual or a family and rely primarily on family labour. Family farms occupy a large share of the world’s agricultural land and produce about 80% of the world’s food."
http://www.fao.org/3/a-i4036e.pdf

"Smallholders can be highly productive. In Brazil, family farmers on average provide 40% of the production of a selection of major crops working on less than 25% of the land. In the United States, family farmers produce 84% of all produce – totalling US$ 230 billion in sales, working on 78% of all farmland. Family farmers in Fiji provide 84% of yam, rice, manioc, maize and bean production working on only 47.4% of the land."
http://www.globalagriculture.org/.../SmallholdersFeedingt...

"The world needs a paradigm shift in agricultural development: from a 'green revolution' to an 'ecological intensification' approach. This implies a rapid and significant shift from conventional, monoculture-based and high-external-input-dependent industrial production towards mosaics of sustainable, regenerative production systems that also considerably improve the productivity of small-scale farmers."
http://unctad.org/.../PublicationsLi.../ditcted2012d3_en.pdf

Small family run farms yield better, have greater biodiversity in crops & livestock, produce 80% of all food in the world and are least damaging to the environment. 

What we, people who promote organic/natural farming with native livestock are saying is the same as what FAO itself is saying. We have had enough of this monoculture, chemical/water intensive farming. What we know is what world bodies are learning now. When farmer organisations across India and farmer support groups say the same and demand action, it's in the best interests of the Indian public and Govt to pay attention. 

we have millions of farmers in disguised unemployment due to family farming

what is disguised unemployment? The average farmer is an entrepreneur, juggling multiple jobs for dairy to herding to horticulture to grains. Lack of financial credit, insurance, seeds (only hybrids are pushed even by the Govt), regulated pricing to keep cost of food low for consumers all contribute to the distress. The issue was never about production but the value given to the work of the farmer.

Komakkambedu Himakiran  the write offs were done to increase tax collections, which were used in MGNREGA and FSA. This is how policies in India work as far as i am aware, people don't pay taxes if we tax them heavily. 

http://www.outlookindia.com/.../how-much-can-we.../291424

How can money not collected increase tax collections?! Don't confuse lower tax rates to tax writeoffs. From Amartya Sen to Sainath to Devinder Sharma to S.Gurumurthy have all pointed out the problem here. a few corporates are fattened at the cost of rest, farmers, consumers, organised/unorganised sector employees.

Sailesh Bhupalam If a family has 8 people, 4 can do the same job as 8 are doing, then 4 are disguisedly unemployed. We can give more value to their work, doesn't mean they need not diversify incomes. 

I don't dispute cronyism or corporate welfarism, They do exist, all i'm saying is tax expenditure is grossly overestimated. If it were not, we still have do deal with whether we should give tax breaks to the rich. And i agree with you that it doesn't create more jobs. They buy houses in london or a yacht or keep their money in panama. 

your solutions for sustainability of environment are well noted. Any sources on the maximum population intensive family farming can support with a surplus and low risk?
Komakkambedu HimakiranKomakkambedu Himakiran it's what the people of the villages want. They are voting with their feet in millions to every city in India. Some in distress some for greener pastures. We cannot claim that we know what they want, we have to provide opportunities for better quality of life, not just push them to do farming in the villages with family. 

We have built zero new urban settlements in the last 50 years, what's wrong with stress on manufacturing to bring people out of poverty?

You say we cannot claim that we know what they want and also say it's what the people of the villages want. 

When you create conditions of distress people migrate. It's not out of choice. You say we have built zero urban settlements but want farmers to move to the cities? Where are the jobs? I have already said only construction labor jobs are being created. Check Labor ministry data. Quality of life? How do you do that by taking house owning people from the villages and putting them as perennial renters living in slums, with no jobs, forget careers? 

India skipped the manufacturing cycle and went to services. When we are ourselves importing 650$ billion worth of products mostly from China, what are we going to manufacture and for whom? What's the point in laying out the red carpet to MNCs at the cost of local manufacturers who are the real job creators? 
Sailesh Bhupalam i am talking about giving them choices, not claiming to know what they want
 
Sailesh Bhupalam So if we skipped manufacturing, now we want go back to agriculture? We can work on manufacturing now.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Sailesh Bhupalam A family of 8 will have 2 old people grazing livestock, collecting forest/tree produce, 3-4 productive age people who will farm, engage in dairy, horticulture, and 2-3 kids who will help in the mornings and evenings while going to school. 

How much time have you spent in a village leaving out vacations? Farming is the main occupation followed by Livestock, apart from that there are at least 20-30 occupations that employ people. The average villager is more of an entrepreneur than the city dweller. Please don't talk about productivity of villages. You look at inputs, externalities and sustainability. Cities will fail miserably.
Sailesh Bhupalam I am from a village Anantapur district, spent my first 5 years there, after that yes like you said i spend my vacations there. But i can tell you, 70% of the village does not own land. There is no forest produce there except thorny bushes. About 30 to 40% families own livestock. Every village is not the same. Not all villagers are gainfully employed most days of the year, isn't that why we brought MGNREGA?
Komakkambedu Himakiran This is the problem here. Do you know who came to the Kisan Swaraj Sammelan? Do you know that 600 farmers from 25 states came there for a 3 day conclave? All of them are organic farmers who have seen the worst of monoculture chemical farming and have formed farmer groups to cooperatives to FPOs and are also doing a lot of advocacy. Do you know the work done by each and every one of the farmer support organisation? All that has been coalesced into the demands. 

Your area would have more livestock than farming as it's a low rainfall area. Of course each village is different, but how is a one policy of moving them to the cities a good policy?

Why WTO, India's pricing policy are the real culprits...

1970 Wheat MSP 76/quintal, 2015 1450, 19X growth. Salary growth, Govt Staff 150X, College Teachers 170X, School Teachers 320X, Corporate top execs 1000X.

http://bit.ly/1QpBYd0

http://devinder-sharma.blogspot.in/.../wto-spat-price-us...
Sailesh Bhupalam about sustainability, there is no debate that cities are unsustainable. Everybody agrees to that. But we can try and make them sustainable, i think it would be much easier than trying to get the world to go back to family farming. 
More immediate concern is the risk associated with farming, about 2 lakh farmers committed suicide in last 10 years.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam I am not saying move everybody to cities, i am saying give them a choice, you can surely ask everyone to shutdown schools and universities and industry and go back to villages, but i'm pretty sure it won't work. 
Farming needs huge investment by govern
ment and a safety net, but to support that safety net we need industry. It could be by capitalists or by farmers cooperatives. We don't need to give them tax breaks, but we do need to skill people and promote entrepreneurship.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran We can't. We don't know how to, we won't make our cities Singapore. All those are pipe dreams sold by media and movies and city dreamers!

Go back to family farming? 80% of the food is produced by family farming! 


Farmers suicides are the reason for govt to save the farmers and make them migrate to posh areas in the cities? 

An abusive husband and a battered wife. Wife leaves the house and the court says, the wife wants to leave as she is not good. What about the abusive husband? No one wants to address that? The abusive husband here is the govt, economic advisors who are basically parrots of the West. 

Do you know the total allocation (not actual spending) on farming, education, healthcare in India and how poorly it compares to tax breaks? Crony capitalism is a mild word. What we have here is company owned govts.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam well, reversing urbanization is a pipe dream. We have to deal with what we are born into. It's just a matter of perspective, you think this won't work that will, i think the opposite. 
Farmers get the wrong end of the stick everytime, because in the pa
st 10 years, about 15% GDP is produced by farming, and 50% + people are dependent on that 15% of GDP. All the more reason to diversify. 
80% food can be produced by 3 or 4 % of farmers with the right implements and technology, which need not always be unsustainable. 
If we cannot provide employment to farmers that many farmers immediately, we will still have a promise of basic necessities being met by entitlements, if we produce in a large scale. Mono culture need not be the only modern method. Our productivity is much lower than other countries.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Urbanisation is a recent phenomenon expedited by India joining WTO. There is a worldwide movement of Back to the Land too. Nature has it's ways of addressing perversions like WTO & globalisation. 

We were trading with the Romans and Greeks and the Chi
nese and Arabs too, migrations have always been there, cities have always been there. It's the organic nature or the lack of it that makes the difference. For every Pattinam, there are Pakkams, Palayams around it. A hub & spoke model if you can call it that, now it's dumping of resources in the cities and distress migration in droves. 

After the Delhi to Tughlakabad forced migration tragedy, this urbanisation policy of the Indian Govt is the worst tragedy!

Do you know why it is 15% of gdp? Low MSP, low or no financial credit, failed irrigation, soil degrading & water intensive monoculture are some of the reasons. The ones who are fighting this are doing organic/natural farming, forming coops, doing value add, branding and taking it to the market. 

3-4% farmers? and you want 1000-1200 million people to live in cities? doing what? our cities are a failure and our villages hold the key to our sovereignty & food security. 

Read that article of Devinder Sharma which busts the productivity argument. That again is the influence of western economic school of thought. They look at rice, wheat and talk about productivity. What about our crop diversity? We have 3-4 cropping seasons while most of the benchmark countries for productivity have 1-2 crop seasons.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam Industries can happen in villages too. When i say 3-4% farmers can cultivate all food required, i don't mean everyone else goes to cities.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran what's this 3-4% number? Did farmers ask you or anyone? Instead of listening to farmers, farmer support groups, what is this attitude of "we know best"!

You want industries, we will have industries processing organic food and exporting it to the world
. Agriculture is the core competency of our country and our unique advantage is that we have largest cultivable area with maximum cropping seasons. Basically more land cultivable for more days in a year. That's something you can't create. We can produce food for the world. 

India is a failed state except for a few. Unless we change that, we will slip further into dependency on the West. Agriculture is the key, everything else should be allied to it.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam 3-4% because that's what every other developed country is doing. Our core competency can still be agriculture when landholdings are large and economies of scale are reaped.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam who says we know best? i am not saying force them to do something. In fact asking them to do agriculture only is presuming that's what they want.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam What if the children want to become artists or doctors or writers? Why should we tie them down to family farming? Sure they can chose to do farming, but they should have a choice.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Developed country? Do you know the number of people working 2-3 jobs to make ends meet in the US? Do you know the income disparity over there? 

Every single one of your developed country was built on colonialism and continued economic imperialism thro
ugh the UN, World Bank, IMF, WTO, World Economic Forum. 

Large landholdings, economies of scale? Do you know the subsidies given to US and Europe farmers? 40$ billion dollars a year.
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Farmers want to be in the village if farming is viable. After deliberately making it unviable, what's this farmers don't want to farm anymore logic?
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran You don't see the policy of moving them out by force/distress as a problem, but farmers themselves asking for help is wrong?
 
Aparna Krishnan Interestingly many urbans beleive that village people want to relocate to cities. These urbans have probably never stepped into a village, nut have confident opinions.
L 
Aparna Krishnan The sad part is that many 'well meaning' Planning Commission characters also belive this, and have as little exposure to village as well !
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Planning commission characters as you call it, know it isn't so, but deliberately ruin the villages. Most of them are former or future consultants to industry.
 
Aparna Krishnan That also. But all english educated urbans inside or outside of Niti Aayog, think villages are backward. So they could well feel they are 'delivering' then as well.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam Why don't we ask them? Farming is not viable as it is, because i have repeated myself multiple times, it is a high risk enterprise. Who made it so? Planning commission? It's a gamble with the monsoon is what it is. If it's viable why do we even need a...See more
 
Komakkambedu Himakiran Wow just wow, after all the detailed articles with stats from official govt sources, blame it on the rain!
According to you, Indian farming is not viable because if it were viable then it wouldn't need support price, policies, subsidies. Then how do you explain giving 40 billion dollars in subsidies to Western farming if it's viable! 

Serious contradiction in that. 

Ask who? I'm not going to waste my time anymore; we are telling what we want. In 2019, we will bring a govt that will put the focus back on farming. The WTO bluff needs to be called. It suits just a few educated elite in the cities who give their advise as policy.

Aparna Krishnan please spend some time in a village and understand - if you are serious. see why the children dont want to farm. why no father will marry a daughter to a farmer. also see what those children of farmers who dont want to farm are doing today !! Sailesh Bhupalam
 
Sailesh Bhupalam western farming is being made viable by industry, who pay taxes so that subsidies are given. There is no contradiction here. If we all take up farming, the odds are one out of every 5 farmers will face losses. This is what insurance companies say. 
I h
ave many friends in the village. They want to have a better quality of life. They want to be able to study in universities and travel. They want health facilities and some comfort. I don't blame them to want to have a better life and It's not because all their farms are unviable. 

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion, as i am to mine. I don't want to waste any more of your time and i rest my case.
 
Aparna Krishnan there is none so blind as will not see. yes, they want IIT degrees maybe. the schools are such that they wander unemployed after school. anyway as you said, you may retain your opinion. or you may go to a village and live there for a year or ten yesars, and understand the issuesm and the try to answer them on the ground.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam so we should improve the schools, instead of closing them. That's all i'm saying. We've come too far in modernity. We have quadrupled our population over a century. There is a reason population remained constant over millenia and multiplied once we had cities. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm not saying it's desirable that we have population explosion, I'm saying we already have it. We are already neck deep in this, and the way i see it we can try and make it sustainable or we can try to go back to an earler perfect era, real or imagined. I guess that sums it up. Whatever problems i see in villages, i guess i will interpret in this wrldview, because fundamentally i believe in giving an equal opportunity to everyone. It could be for IITs or whatever they want to do.
 
Aparna Krishnan try improving the schools and getting them all into IITs. good luck. you are speaking to people who have spent time with all this since 1996. please give 2 years of your life towards your dream on 'improving govt schools', and then i will continue the discussion ! i am out of this thread now.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam i guess that's a problem. i agree. my interpretation of your words doesn't cover your expreience. in that i am handicapped. But there is also another side to this, for example when i say giving everybody an equal opportunity only means a real shot at getting into IITs if they want to, not that it is possible to get them all. But if they don't get in, it should not be based on the virtue of their birth. So your interpretation of my statements are also leaning towards an end based on your experience. That's what i gather.
 
Vasudeva Reddy Thathi yes this type of practice goingon because we I mean Govt or NGos not bathering about them and their activities .we have totally faild getting awarenes to them.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam women want to give all their saved up money to their son and not the daughter, it's a personal choice, is it patriarchy? women think they are inferior to men, it is a personal opinion, patriarchy? women don't expect their sons to take care of them but want their daughters to take care of them, patriarchy? women think they should be paid lower than men in work, they even send requests to government and employers to do so, to avoid unnecessary tensions at home, patriarchy? Muslim women wear burkhas and hindu women cover their faces with their saree as a choice, personal choice or patriarchy?

If we tell them this is what their gender role is in society since they are months old and keep telling them everyday you should only do this and not that, eventually they will come to believe in it. It's just sad and makes me angry. then people say it's a choice.
  
Sailesh Bhupalam they can chose to wear whatever they want, people won't socially boycott her. but if they try entering a temple on periods, someone will probably kill them. There is an element of social control
 
Aparna Krishnan nobody kills for this. anyway please go to a village and spend a year, and then we will talk. no point otherwise.
 
Sailesh Bhupalam i was born in a village and spent much of my childhood there, but it seems the village you speak of is much different from mine. so there are nuances .

Srividhya Gopalakrishnan absolutely not... we still follow the custom where we are.. but i absolutely love it because it is pure freedom and rest on those three days ... And everyone else in the house learns cooking and all the house hold work during that time... i get to finish a book or two every month...
 
Aparna Krishnan yes, let the men cook at least 3 days !!
 
Srividhya Gopalakrishnan in fact i think it is a very well thought out way of sensitizing the boys towards the problem faced by women.They get used to their mothers/sisters going through this and as they grow up they tend to appreciate the problem faced by women who come in their lives later
 
Aparna Krishnan yes, i never looked at it that way.
 


Raj Jog Singh Quite in perspective.. At times one wonders if carrying the child in a womb for 9 months is also patriarchy or a prerogative...
 
Anirudhra Boganadham Letz leave Morons ka, whose only mission is to destroy the Roots. Let do our bit of knowledge sharing with as many ppl as possible.

More than a Custom it is more of Health & Mind related our ancestors have brought this custom into place. Letz keep educating our ppl, if they listen, they are going to Stay healthy and Sound, else, they will suffer 
 

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