Thursday, 27 April 2017

FB Discussions - Reservations

Private sector reservation coming in 2019. Our leader Nitish is coming!
#bogusmerit #socialjustice #reservations
தனியார் நிருவண இடஒதுக்கீடு 2019யில் வரும். எங்க தலைவன் நிதிஸ் வராரு!
#போலிதகுதி #சமூகநீதி #இடஒதுக்கீடு
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Comments

Sujan Balachandran Hima, I dont think there will be any use for mgmt quota if there was no reservation. Even if I was wrong mgmt quota is a result of reservations and not the other way around. if I was wrong the second time then having mgmt quota does not justify reservation.
We are talking about people who do not have the advantage of both caste and money. What do those people do? Second what people do when they have the advantage of both caste and money, what do they choose to do?
I support reservation but comparing that to mgmt quota is only going to create problems than help you with the campaign 

Sujan Balachandran As for Nitish becoming a union leader, I like the guy, but I am not sure about the semantics of it. He will have to do too many compromises to keep the ship assail. That will be way too much federalism like what was when Chandrasekhar was the PM. That may not be a good thing for our nation now.
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 01:54

Komakkambedu Himakiran How many people who oppose reservations even think about the problems of the less privileged? They don't see beyond their own. All their arguments about meritocracy are merely to undermine reservations, not a single of them protested management quota.
 
Sathya Narayanan S Less privileged don't exists only in sc/st or other reserved community. All people without reserves in assets or affluence are under privileged. That is the real social injustice. 

The ones who have can afford management quota. The ones who don't are miniroty and have no recourse. Does protest give any solution to their already difficult lives when ear action is built on the bane of vote banks? Never underestimate the power of ***** in large numbers. What's the use? They are tired and retired out of fatigue in fending for their own.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 09:53

Komakkambedu Himakiran without affluence? having 2-3 generations of educated people in the family itself is a big mark of affluence. If you take non FCs, except for a few BC Christians, the rest are all 1st or at the most 2nd generation literates. Compare that to FCs who are 4th or 5th generation literates. 

The ones who can't afford management quota complain about reservations benefiting less privileged of other communities, but don't mind the ones in their own communities buying seats!
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 11:55
Sathya Narayanan S That still doesn't prove every Dalit sc st and reserved are under privileged. If education is a mark of affluence then you are grossly cockeyed. Literacy is an enabler not thebenchmark to be able to provide for self and family. You need money ( read real affluence)
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 14:09 

Komakkambedu Himakiran Sathya Narayanan S do you have stats on how many Dalits are rich and how many Brahmins are poor? Do you know the number of seats created to offset the quota?
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 14:35

Komakkambedu Himakiran It's funny when you say several generations of education doesn't bring affluence for FCs but it does for Dalits!
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 14:36

Komakkambedu Himakiran Shall we look at bank loans by caste? You'll be surprised to see FCs corner majority of the financial credit, have the highest tax breaks and also NPAs. 

As of now, Union Govt hasn't implemented existing reservations properly. They deliberately leave positions vacant. That's how caste operates in India.
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 14:41
Sathya Narayanan S I never said anything about education not brining affluence to Dalits. Just that not every Dalit is poor which can you deny? Even if I assume you are right that almost all Dalits are illiterate where do you account for their affluence? IMHO there are many educated Dalits also many of them even being bearucrats and in civil services.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 14:57
Sathya Narayanan S The amount of bank loans by lower and middle class is high indicator of not having disposable resources in the first place. Why would anyone pay long term loan interest if they have money in their pockets?
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 14:59
Sathya Narayanan S By demanding stats from me, are saying that there is not a single Dalit or any other community under reservation who is affluent regardless of their education? So you would not acknowledge that poor and rich exist in all communities!! Poor in the so called FC is somehow affluent so they don't deserve to feed themselves or to have a dream that someday themselves or their next generation can be atleast middle class without having to worry about day to day, month to month struggles?!!! Now that's social injustice and discrimination.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 15:07

Komakkambedu Himakiran Sathya Narayanan S we are talking about access to credit itself being  mark of affluence. 

You are the one who keeps complaining about this; please read the SECC 2011 which shows where exactly the castes are in socioeconomic standing. Who said there aren't poor in the FCs? How come you only think about them? What poor means for a FC is different from what it means to a SC. 

For years people kept opposing denying discrimination, now they talk about the mythical poverty stricken FC!
LikeReply228 April 2016 at 15:34
Sathya Narayanan S That argument comes on the basis on which reservation is cloaked!! Btw I may be the one who complains but I am sure is am not the only one. There could be many who chose not to jeopardise their peace whatever left of it. Regarding your comment on poor FC and poor SC is hilarious. Pasi ngrathu pulicha eppam vudravangalukku puriyadhu. Ennillavadhu viradham irukkavangullukku dhinam pattini puriyadhu. Avlo than
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 16:43

Karthikeya Sivasenapathy Hunger may be the same but ill treatment and discrimination because of birth is not the same
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 16:49
Sathya Narayanan S Karthikeya Sivasenapathy isn't the same being done to FC in the name of reservation? 
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 16:54

Komakkambedu Himakiran not really...show me the numbers of FCs below poverty line. For all the merit talk, I thought people opposing reservations would have done proper research with data to prove their claim rather than stick to anecdotal references to mythical poor FCs!

Again, I'd like to know your definition of poor, I'm pretty sure it's not the same as what we say with reference to the less privileged.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 17:00
Sathya Narayanan S Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula haha. Kai punnukku kannadi kuduthaa thaan paapiya?
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 17:53

Komakkambedu Himakiran ennavo machi...naanga solratha ketta, poor FCs ku nu ethachu plan pannalam; atha vuttuttu complete anti-reservation stand liye iruntha, yaarukku nashtam..
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 18:28

Karthikeya Sivasenapathy Sathya Narayanan  Show many fc s clean toilets of
Others ? How many fc s are made to stand out in a temple because of birth ?
LikeReply228 April 2016 at 20:57

Arun Vignesh M That still doesn't prove every Dalit sc st and reserved are under privileged. If education is a mark of affluence then you are grossly cockeyed. Literacy is an enabler not thebenchmark to be able to provide for self and family. You need money ( read real affluence)///

You prove us. Why are FCs not agreeing for a caste based soci-economic census!? Why is GOI reluctant to conduct such census and releasr the data!?

If you FCs ar really suffering then will prove it with statistical data. But their oppostion to caste based socio economic census proves their casteist racist malicious intent
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 22:04
Sathya Narayanan S Kotravan as fervent as your argument be... 'You FC' is not acceptable. I am not talking in favor of FC alone. I am just making an argument that any benefit govt plans must go all deserved. My point has always been give the benefit to all underprivileged. Stating a caste or community is not fair in this day. 

If you talk statistically there won't be good numbers for FC. Why? Because they are already reduced to miniroty. A minuscule proportion and percentile of poor in that demography will hardly ever matter to you. FC are also reproducing less considering there is no relief. Probably less than 1.6 and at this rate they will soon become an extinct species. Then who will you have reservations against? 

Again that's not the point I am trying to make. 'You FC' also sounds racist in the interludes of hatred. That's apartheid. The world has come a far way from those stigmas you talk about being 'underprivileged'. I have seen my grandmother generation like that. I have traveled far and wide. I have accepted all race and creed and also been accepted into all their families. I harbour no grudge. All I am saying is if we have to look for a better future we must change this avengeful vision. Revenge is never a solution. If your grandfather did a crime he must be punished not his grandson. That's the argument of reservation in terms of birth. It's nothing more than organised naxalism. Think about it. No matter how minor FC are they are still the citizens of our country. Don't they deserve equal rights too? Because a few generations back something was wrong why punish them today? Is that fair? They are suffering equally with the same govt as much as you in fact more because they are more discriminated against. The Rajas of the old time who used to be arrogant and haughty and affluent are all paupers today in democratic India and forced to fend for themselves. For sure FC are all not that wealthy. You can pick a handful of those who maybe are. There are still many unaccounted for who don't have anything. Not even an identity leave alone a voice. Even a meak voice is silenced by the angry mob making it a taboo to even claim their identity as FC. FC has thus become today's untouchables. And thus history repeats itself. If at all we need a good future there must be equity povided on the basis of needs. So in essence we are taking the same discriminating based on birth is senseless. Sooner we see all humans as humans being humane world will be a better place with less hatred.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:10
Sathya Narayanan S Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I don't want anything for poor FC. But for all poor. If you plan based on caste not all poor will be addressed only resourceful few in those demography you focus will gain. FC padichittu oora vuttu vodaannaa avana inga vaazha vudunga. Appuram pesalam.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:14
Sathya Narayanan S Karthikeya Sivasenapathy how is that relevant to reservation? Does your system of reservation build temples specifically for the so called underprivileged?
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:15

Komakkambedu Himakiran FCs are 16-18% here, problem is you seem to think only Brahmins are FCs. Please come step out of those shoes and see the world first. 

Also what's this new spin about FCs having less kids? Is this another Hindutva propaganda, like how they said Hindus have low TFR. 

You talk about discrimination? Where? Just because a few FCs didn't get the seats they thought they deserved it's discrimination? You want to talk about discrimination, just see how manual scavengers die and how much outrage is their in FC owned media outlets. Farmers die in hordes while FCs and media talk about FDI and GMOs. 

You can't talk about discrimination only from your viewpoint.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:17

Komakkambedu Himakiran Enough of this bogus propaganda of FCs leaving the states; they did that because in the 60s-70s Union Govt created jobs. Before that they joined ICS under the British. 

Post 80s and privatization of education, FCs gained well due to the English education policies here. All this brain drain bs needs to stop. Just compare the medical services in TN and you will know where the real brains are working.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:20

Komakkambedu Himakiran Tamilnadu is a top state because of its reservation policies, social justice programs, midday meal scheme, keeping Hindi out and promoting English and so much more. Just come to OMR, you'll see top students from north India working in IT companies and settling down there as they feel chennai is safe with a good education system, facilities etc. these are all upper caste students from places like jadavpur, roorkee etc.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:23

Komakkambedu Himakiran Your arguments are like the boy who cried wolf!

Until you admit the historical discrimination which still continues in subtle ways, you will not matter in the larger social discourse. Kadivaalam potta paarvai than prachanai. 

If you can only talk about problems faced by one single community, then you are probably better off not joining the discourse on society!
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:26
Sathya Narayanan S Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I am all in favor of mid day meals, keeping hindi out, etc. Just dont think the reservations layout as its presribed and implemented does not do justice in 2016.. It may have been in times of real oppression no denying that fact. As times change we must evolve too... thats all
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:27

Komakkambedu Himakiran So there is no oppression now? Do you know what abuse people especially Dalits face in institutes of higher education? Constant reminders of their background and how they can never succeed and how they are their not due to merit, that's enough to make them lose it. Brahmin CM led Maharashtra govt had the gall to reserve jobs in sanitation to a specific community. This was in 2016; how many of the poor FCs protested that? 

You have declared there is no oppression now? Please read SECC 2011 and also how the upper castes are preventing it from being released into the public domain.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:31
Sathya Narayanan S Dei... try to read my comments again... I am talking for FC. this was a response to "you FC" comment... Try saying "you people" in public in US and you will know what I mean.

And again, by attacking me personally, will not make your arguments any stronger or mine any weaker... it just shows I am minority here.

The society I am in is what I perceive with my own eyes and in that I feel strongly about 'underprivileged' as everyone who is arm twisted and their fruits of labor stolen, and those 'affluent' who have it all and yet take from other's plates as though they think its rightfully theirs...
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:31

Komakkambedu Himakiran Haha, do you know what the problems of Brahmins are? They've always lived within their own world in isolation from society and that's why they can't think beyond their own world views. 

You said FCs are a minuscule population and they have low TFR. How is 16% minuscule? That's why I asked you to think beyond your own.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:34
Sathya Narayanan S Hima you already said that it remains only in subtle levels... cancer and stomach ache are the same... so the same level of harsh treatment is no longer required. this is the evolutionary change I am talking about...
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:34

Komakkambedu Himakiran Who defines that? Subtle discrimination is ok now? This attitude of defining what's wrong for others needs to stop. Society will decide that in consultation with stakeholders.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:35
Sathya Narayanan S 16% is miniscule because they do not contribute to vote bank and thus strategies to win elections can get away with anything
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:35
Sathya Narayanan S hima you are arguing for the sake of it... if it was real oppresession, then you treat like cancer... if it was only subtle then you terat like acidity... change your treatment is what i said... i never commented if it was ok or not... dont try to misinterpret what I say for your agenda.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:38

Komakkambedu Himakiran Sathya Narayanan S what are you saying? Check the candidate list of BJP; you will understand how effective that 16% vote bank is.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:39

Komakkambedu Himakiran I'm arguing for arguments sake? I have better things to do. Saying things like that are a mark of failed debate!
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 08:40

Arun Vignesh M Come on. FC vote Bank played an important role in BJP getting majority in the Parliament
LikeReply129 April 2016 at 08:47

Arun Vignesh M Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula, if live is cool to be a SC and live sucks to be a FC then what prevents FCs from marrying SCs and live a so called privileged life  Everyone knows who is really privileged 
LikeReply329 April 2016 at 08:50
Sathya Narayanan S Hima yes this is a failed debate. I try to argue for all deserved beyond FC or SC. I don't stand to gain anything myself. But all you keep doing is bringing caste and deliberately steering the light of my argument. And calling me Brahmins and making generic comments on them. You like your friends insulting Brahmins. But failing to see how that's not discriminating and insulting when you do to others when you proclaim you have endured it for so many years. How can one give pain to others when one had really experienced it and one knows how it hurts? 

Like all others who are not really in your debate to give a check in reality I must have also been so. They have been silent for a reason. After all like them I do have a day job to fend for myself and family. So all the best and may karma speak for itself.
LikeReply29 April 2016 at 09:16
Karthikeya Sivasenapathy Sathya Narayanan S nope. Show me penniless daily wage earners fc s in Tamilnadu
LikeReply129 April 2016 at 09:30
Komakkambedu Himakiran Sathya Narayanan S I criticize everyone. Please look at social and anthropological angles. You didn't argue for all deserved. Your primary point is poor FCs are being discriminated against. There are no numbers for that; also you said only a minuscule population, I said that's wrong as its 16%. Isn't it obvious that you were referring to only Brahmins in your argument. Nothing wrong in that and that's what I pointed out stating as a community, they lived in isolation from the society. That's how it was in all villages and even in towns and cities. Interaction between Brahmins and other communities was limited. All this is pure anthropology. 

I like my friends insulting Brahmins? Where? I've always called out abuse when I see it. I might have missed a few times, just due to the multiple threads and multiple people commenting. 

What are your thoughts on land ceiling? Abolishment of estates? Nationalisation of banks?
LikeReply129 April 2016 at 09:37
Komakkambedu Himakiran Again how can you say blatant discrimination earlier in the day was bad, but discrimination now is ok as its only subtle!

Your point about fm revenge is moot; I come from a landed community, classified as upper caste and for the past 700 years, we've had a good run on top of society. I don't know what discrimination is. But I support reservations, land ceiling, nationalisation of banks as these are direct endeavors to dismantling of Varnashramam. When we made reservations mainstay in education and entry level govt jobs, there was/is so much resistance. But the fact is less than 0.5 % of all jobs in India are affected by reservations. Even that, Union Govt hasn't implemented it properly. The upper caste bureaucratic/industrial lobby of Delhi/Mumbai pushes privatization, loots the country with 48 lac crores in tax breaks since 2004, 3 lac crores NPAs. Existing reservations are not implemented. Many people who argue saying reservations were ok for 1-2 generations but has to stop now; I haven't seen one of them actually talk about how existing reservations itself haven't been implemented. That's the power of the upper caste lobby spread across bureaucracy, media, industry.
  

Komakkambedu Himakiran Chandrashekar was one of the best PMs we couldn't have for a full term.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 05:27

Komakkambedu Himakiran There is nothing called too much federalism; that's what India is and needs. BJP and congress are too caught up in the Delhi/Mumbai lobby gangs and have no connect with the people.
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 05:28

Sujan Balachandran Beg to disagree, my friend. There are strategic priorities that has to be dealt with at the union level and a constant tug of war between different states is going to hamper it will go no where.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 06:00

Komakkambedu Himakiran Can you give examples of such instances where BJP/Congress did better?

When BJP and congress rule, they put states against each other, ah use article 356, come up with the worst economic policies like opening up to FDI in critical sectors, force GMOs, I could go on and on. 

Post 2004, there is no BJP or congress but Lutyens Delhi ruling us.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 06:34

Komakkambedu Himakiran Do you know who opened up India's economy from the license raj days? Chandrashekar, unfortunately congress pulled the plug on his govt and the work he started was taken forward by PVN.
LikeReply28 April 2016 at 06:35

Kathir Krishnamurthi This is where a large state like US succeeds...power down to the level of towns....India is more unitary than federal...
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 06:58

Kathir Krishnamurthi In India.. the guy in Delhi collects money from the whole country and everybody goes with a begging bowl to him.. He fantasizes on National language, Education at National Level...Permits at National Level etc...This cannot and should not happen in a federal democracy..There is no need of Governor of a state appointed by Center...
LikeReply128 April 2016 at 07:15Edited
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