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Tuesday, 4 April 2017
Reservations, temple entry ...
4 April 2016 at 12:20 ·
The arrogance of the upper classes. Born to privilege, and grudgeing the smallest boost given to those in far poorer circumstances.
They voice their opinion against reservations and use their own 'affirmative action' to get their kids admission. They use the management quota.
States where reservations have been properly implemented in education and jobs are ranked better in all developmental indices.
(via Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula) http://m.timesofindia.com/.../articleshow/46678784.cms
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna: you see how much progress India has made in caste issues? Imagine the scene back in the days.
Next stop private sector, let the upper castes go to America or Jupiter!
India will be better off without them.
Aparna Krishnan Absolutely. I used to worry about brain drain. Now I will gladly give all of them a free one way ticket to USA or Australia, and write off the vast subsidies they claimed here - as a poor country's gift to her richest ! They are irreparable.
Ananda Ganesh Why give one way tickets only to upper castes? It is too highbrow. We demand reservation for others also.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula They are the ones cribbing about reservations and saying that is leading to brain drain; we see it as filtering out.
Ananda Ganesh The Indian reservation system is not to give any opportunities to the really deserving candidates. The SC and STs together get 22.5% only whereas the BC and OBCs, which are the most affluent groups in India, get 76.5%.
Only those affluent groups people come in support of reservation.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula 1) what data is that? Reservation is 50% in most states, that's less than the population of the OBCs/SCs/STs put together. In Tamilnadu it's 69%, which is still less than population of non Open category.
2) I'm upper caste from landed community, I support reservations, land ceiling as well as nationalisation of banks. Those 3 are steps to break down the damage done by 2000 years of a perverted inhuman system of slavery by birth called Varnashramam.
3) How did you arrive at affluence? Go read the SECC 2011 to figure out the real socioeconomic status of India.
4) Tamilnadu implemented reservations properly and now tops almost all socioeconomic parameters. Delhi Govts controlled by upper caste bureaucracy deliberately didn't implement reservations.
Ananda Ganesh Now you are talking Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula ! :)
Please go ahead with your other points in favour of BC and OBCs. They are enlightening.
Ananda Ganesh Are you aware that as per varnashrama, most people who were kings and emperors are BC and OBCs ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula No, as per your Varnashramam, south of the Vindhyas we are all Shudras!
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Nice try of making this a BC/OBC vs SC/ST thing. Better luck next time!
Ananda Ganesh Show me scriptural proof that says south of vidhyas are all shudras.
Ananda Ganesh You are arguing in favour of BCandOBCs. You are arguing for your castes. You are supporting reservation for your castes than the SCs and STs who really need it. It is your castes that are oppressing harijans more than any other castes. A lot of harijans are opposing this trickery. I know telling the fact that it was BCsandOBCs who are against harijans will scare you. However, truth is truth. If you have any doubt, go check the police records about atrocities done to harijans by which castes. I am not making it as BC/OBC vs SC/STs. It has been the BC/OBCs who are always swindling the SC/STs.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Haha, scriptures? You believe in that?
stop for a minute and read what I said, I'm upper caste, so no I'm not arguing for my caste.
You think it's some great secret? Of course there are caste problems; we are the ones fixing them by social justice programs.
We won't fall for this divide and rule policy. There might be a few Hindutva boot lickers amidst all communities who will fall for the trap of caste identity and lose focus on social justice, but we won't.
Private sector reservations coming in 2019. Have fun!
Aparna Krishnan Is it ? Private secor reservations, I mean. Where is the demand tabled ?
Ananda Ganesh I am sorry that I did not know that what you say are amount to scriptures. Check your comments in which you justified reservations for BCs and OBCs with a lot of points.
Ananda Ganesh I am in support of a reservation system only for Harijans. Will any of you here have the moral courage to support it ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula You said kings and rulers here were from BC/OBC. I said they were all Shudras as per Varnashramam.
Until the influence of Sanskrit speaking Brahmins from the North, we didn't have caste based hierarchies; check Sangam literature.
I asked you to check SECC 2011 to see the actual status of all castes in India. Why quiet about that? The upper caste lobby knows the SECC 2011 has revealed the real picture of how bad most people are doing.
Do you have the moral courage to accept the recommendations of the backward classes commission? Do you have the moral courage to take a Dalit inside your agama temples? Do you have the moral courage to allow reservations for Dalits in private sector?
Karthikeya Sivasenapathy Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula that's what they have been doing now days bc vs sc st sadly some bc s fall for it
Ananda Ganesh //The people who voice their opinion against reservations happily go settle in the US and use affirmative action quota to get their kids admission.//
The affirmation policy is completely different and almost opposite of the reservation policy.
There are more number of people who are pro-reservation are in USA now than those who are against.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna, no it won't be tabled under the rich Brahmin-Jain govt. we will do it under the BC/OBC led govt which will come in 2019.
Ananda Ganesh Why not a government led by a SC or ST ? Because only BC or OBC will help continue the oppression and swindling of SCs and STs. Thanks for the confessions.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Haha, sure, did you know Highest number of Dalit owned businesses are in Tamilnadu? Of course you wouldn't know cause you really don't care about them except when you use them against OBCs.
Ananda Ganesh Is that why the BCs and OBCs have formed caste-based political parties in Tamil Nadu and working against the harijan political parties ? Makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the clue.
Karthikeya Sivasenapathy No OBC or BC party is successful like Hima said they are boot lickers for few seats and most of the OBC or BC s are with main stream parties like dmk or admk
Ananda Ganesh Indeed. That is why the DMK and ADMK are the most castiest parties.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula BJP is Upper Casteist party, they own the copyright on casteism.
Ananda Ganesh Maybe true. That is why it has a lot of BC/OBCs as its leaders. BCs and OBCs are upper castes.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula DMK & ADMK have leaders from all castes and caste groupings; Their caste diversity is much more than the BJP. What about the owner of BJP, the RSS? Shall we talk about their leadership?
Ananda Ganesh India is a free country and I respect freedom of speech. So, please go ahead and tell me how come all the second level leaders are mostly from BC,OBC and SC/ST communities.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula India is a free country, but not inside our temples sanctums?
Ananda Ganesh That you have to answer. Why you people are not allowing harijans not even the temples let alone the sanctums ?
Aparna Krishnan Do you have a serious concern for the SC problem ? Or is this a game of scoring points Ananda Ganesh. The latter would be a waste of time for everyone.
Ananda Ganesh You can say that to Komakkambedu Himakiran Angula.
Aparna Krishnan I am well aware of his work on the ground. Anyway I'm out of this. Better work to do.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula It was our leaders who worked for temple entry while Hindutva leaders fuel caste riots.
We got temple entry, can you get Sanctum entry?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula hahaha, your respect for them is shown in repeated usage of the word, "Harijans" which they don't accept.
So where are we meeting? North Mada street or Big Street? I will bring our Dalit friends. Will you get us entry into the sanctum?
Out of Hindutva fed material?
Ananda Ganesh First take your friends to the BC, OBCs owned temples. Not even the sanctum, just the temples. If you could do that then you really consider them as your friends.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula BC & OBC owned temples are private property, unlike the HR&CE temples; didn't know that?
next point please!
Ananda Ganesh So, you will be the first person to stand against the entry of harijans in your-caste owned temples, because those temples that you own are private property. Right. Makes a lot of sense.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula haha. for the nth time, I am from an FC community. If only you open your eyes and read, you would have known that.
Ananda Ganesh Whatever be your communicty, if you are not allowing harijans in temple, you are a castiest.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula neither is it my temple nor am I from those communities. get that into your head. I am asking for govt owned temples to reform. your counter argument is to say privately owned temples don't allow!
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula So many times I've said I'm from FC community & Dalits don't call themselves Harijans, but you seem to be in repeat mode. Please go get a system upgrade.
Every govt temple doesn't allow other communities inside the Sanctum. That is the policy we need to change. Your point on BC/OBC owned temples not allowing Dalits is at best diversionary. We will fight against that too, but first reform should happen in commonly owned temples before community owned.
Ananda Ganesh So, you won't question the casteism of oppressive castes, because they are not from your caste, but you will question the brahmins although you are not from their caste. Makes a lots and lots of sense.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula No Brahmins don't own our temples. We are not asking for temple entry or sanctum entry in Brahmin owned temples. How hard is that to understand!
Ananda Ganesh If you want sanctum-entry rights for all castes, ask for all temples and not be partial.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula HR&CE temples: Public Transport Buses.
Bus Driver: only Brahmins!
BC/OBC/Brahmin owned temples: Private Cars.
Drivers: own community.
Got it? we are asking for bus drivers from all communities in public owned temples.
Ananda Ganesh Why did you miss out public toilets ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I can complain only when I am not allowed in a public space, private space, the owners themselves have to reform.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Same logic applies!
Ananda Ganesh According to the law, there is no such a thing as private temples. If you show me any law talking about it, I might consider your point.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula A temple inside a Jain housing complex is a private temple and a perfectly legal thing. You are the one quoting the law stating there are no private temples; you show me the law!
Ananda Ganesh You are the one who talked about private temples. Show me proof. I am not talking about temples inside an apartment, but temple that is exclusively temple, in which the FCs, BCs, and OBCs are not allowing harijans.
Ananda Ganesh http://www.newindianexpress.com/.../03/18/article3332993.ece
Dalits Not Allowed to Enter Tirupur Temple - The New Indian Express
TIRUPUR: Dalits of seven villages in Tirupur district are not allowed to worship at the a new Uthamapalayam Mariyamman temple, which was built by the area’s caste Hindus because the old temple, under HR&CE (Hindu Religious & Charitable Endowments) Department, ‘lost its sanctity’ when Dalits entered…
Ananda Ganesh In many places in Tamil Nadu, harijans are not allowed to even walk on the streets where the FCs, BCs, and OBCs are living. If they had to walk they have to remove their footwear and then only they can walk on the street. Here is another news about it.
In Perali village, Dalits can't cycle in upper caste areas
After several years of struggle and agitation,…
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Let's work together then; do you know who supports these fringe groups? RSS!
You find me one temple where Dalits are not allowed and I will work to get them access; can you do the same in a Agama temple? Deal?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I have said there are problems in our society with caste; you still haven't accepted temple sanctum access only by birth is a problem!
Ananda Ganesh If you can read English, you will find the news about one temple that is not allowing harijans, which I have given already. Hope to hear from you about your successful temple entry of harijans. Best of luck !
Ananda Ganesh //do you know who supports these fringe groups? RSS!//
Yes. Indeed. Have you heard about Uthapuram temple issue where harijans were not allowed by FCs and BCs?
It is RSS that convinced all the parties concerned and now harijans are allowed to enter the temple.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Who are Harijans?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula They are Dalits, why do use a term they don't like!
We know what the RSS cooks up in each and every district. Every place Hindu zealots and Casteist OBCs are working together.
It's the same RSS that is fighting against priests from other communities, that too in courts. Shall we take a count of who is against the priests of other communities? Who appeared for them in the courts?Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula http://www.abplive.in/.../ones-who-used-to-polish-your...
Just another day in RSS land!
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Answer the question about Dalit priest in a Agama temple first. Until then, everything you say is irrelevant. You the so called Dalit champion, who wants to save them from the OBCs, please give them shelter inside the sanctum of your Agamic temples?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Take your pick; Mylapore Kapaleeswarar or Triplicane Parthasarathy temple? Or shall we go for the biggie, Tirupati?
Which temple are you taking the Dalits to be priests?
Ananda Ganesh Priests come from all jaathis. There are temples where harijans, BCs, and OBCs are traditionally priests. If they are ready to give up their inherited ancestral profession as priests, for which they have equally sacrificed, then the priests in agamic temples will also give up their seats. Will you ask your BC and OBC priests to give up temples for harijans ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Forget a temple, get them a house for rent in Mylapore or West Mambalam!
Ananda Ganesh You jump from one question to another without responding to my answers to each post. By the by, if I show the houses rented to harijans in Mylapore and West Mambalam, what will you do ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Haha, temples of other communities are self funded. Agama temples are state funded, so it's people property. Aparna, don't miss this part!
Ananda Ganesh Now the excuse not to give the priest place for harijans in BC and OBC temples. :) Proves how castiests and dishonest these people are.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Your usage of the word Harijans itself reeks of ignorance on Dalit political thinking. They don't call themselves that!
Which temple Mylai or Keni?
Ananda Ganesh As usual you prove yourself to be a dishonest castiest person who cares only for his caste and do anything to exploit harijans.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Ancestral professions? So for Brahmins ancestral professions which are not given by merit, are acceptable but for others?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Hahaha, I'm upper caste so reservations don't help me!
Answer the questions
1) Mylapore or Tiruvallikeni, which temple are you taking the Dalits to be priest? Both temple are state owned, so all jobs there should be accessible to all people.
2) Where did the merit argument go for priest jobs in govt owned temples run on people's money?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Losing the argument? Running out of ideas? It shows when you get into personal attacks of calling me "dishonest" "casteist"!
Ananda Ganesh I am answerable to what I said and not for what I have not said. To understand that requires basic intelligence.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna, this thread is how it typically does down. Ignoring questions, trying to divide and rule, finally personal attacks. That's why we are not bothered with these things. We will do our work on the ground and in the laws.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, utter waste of good time.
Ananda Ganesh It takes less work to reach the positions instead of working to enter through backdoors, Best of luck !
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Haha, again why target my intelligence?
I ask a question, you don't answer. That is profound intellect indeed!
So the Brahmin priests there come through front door?
P.S.: I prefer Tiruvallikenni as the food is good there.
Ananda Ganesh For your information, I am not a brahmin. Suit yourself.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula You are the one who said I'm a BC or OBC despite repeated statement to the contrary from me.
I didn't say you are a Brahmin, did I?!
Aparna Krishnan But I would concentrate on the homes (not) being let out in Mylapore, Temple priesthood is another amd more complex issue. For one thing its not really aspirational. So its in a sense tilting at windmills. For another thing, I would need to read more into these texts to understand what to question and what not to. I doubt if anyone of us is read deeply. Outright discrimination like temply entry are clear issues. Other issues could need some deeper reading - such as the requirements of priesthood. If not birth, maybe certian personal disciplines are needed. In our village the person who says mantrams practices certian codes, even the SC, and does not idly hand over the mantrams to all who seek it. Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna, there are priests from non Brahmin communities who have taken the training under both Agama and Tamil rituals and have cleared their exams too. Yet there appointment is being opposed, why?
There is no qualification by birth. It's the situation you are born into apart from what to make of it that makes a person.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, then this needs debate and addressing.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula The people decide if temple entry is enough or temple sanctum entry as priests is needed. 70 years ago it was temple entry, now we need progress.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Ramanujar converted lacs into Vaishnavism and wouldn't agree with these political pseudo Brahmins and their Hindutva fed supporters.
"Ramanuja then proceeded to Thirukottiyur to take initiation from Nambi for Japa of the sacred Mantra of eight letters Om Namo Narayanaya. Somehow, Nambi was not willing to initiate Ramanuja easily. He made Ramanuja travel all the way from Srirangam to Madurai nearly eighteen times before he made up his mind to initiate him, and that too, only after exacting solemn promises of secrecy. Then Nambi duly initiated Ramanuja and said: "Ramanuja! Keep this Mantra a secret. This Mantra is a powerful one. Those who repeat this Mantra will attain salvation. Give it only to a worthy disciple previously tried". But Ramanuja had a very large heart. He was extremely compassionate and his love for humanity was unbounded. He wanted that every man should enjoy the eternal bliss of Lord Narayana. He realised that the Mantra was very powerful. He immediately called all people, irrespective of caste and creed, to assemble before the temple. He stood on top of the tower above the front gate of the temple, and shouted out the sacred Mantra to all of them at the top of his voice. Nambi, his Guru, came to know of this. He became furious. Ramanuja said: "O my beloved Guru! Please prescribe a suitable punishment for my wrong action". Ramanuja said: "I will gladly suffer the tortures of hell myself if millions of people could get salvation by hearing the Mantra through me". Nambi was very much pleased with Ramanuja and found out that he had a very large heart full of compassion. He embraced Ramanuja and blessed him. Having thus equipped himself with the necessary qualifications, Ramanuja succeeded Yamuna."
"Ramanuja then visited all the Vaishnavite shrines in South India and finally reached Srirangam. Here he settled himself permanently and continued his labours of preaching the Visishtadvaita philosophy and writing books. Thousands of people flocked to him everyday to hear his lectures. He cleansed the temples, settled the rituals to be observed in them, and rectified many social evils which had crept into the community. He had a congregation of 700 Sannyasins, 74 dignitaries who held special offices of ministry, and thousands of holy men and women, who revered him as God. He converted lakhs of people to the path of Bhakti. He gave initiation even to washermen. He was now seventy years old, but was destined to live many more years, establish more Mutts, construct more temples and convert many more thousands of people."
Ananda Ganesh Aparna Krishnan,
The so-called training that government arranged was fake. They were given at the most 3 months of fake training and they have no skills in that. Just because they have got 2 to 3 months of training, they want to get posts "only in rich temples" while there are hundreds of ancient temples that need priests.
Ananda Ganesh Aparna Krishnan,
While the demand for priesthood for seems legit at the high-level, do you know that there are many temples in Tamil Nadu where harijans are not even allowed to enter ?
Yes, it might be shocking to you.
Do you know who are the people who are not allowing them ? The same castiests BCs and OBCs who are demanding priesthood in agama-based temples. :)
Aparna Krishnan This is not a OBC- SC oneupmanship post. It is a collective search for answers to the SC problem. On the ground.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Fake training? what sort of an accusation is this? So everything apart from birth will be dismissed as fake training? Govt decides this.
How come the hundreds of ancient temples don't have "by birth" priests? Did they neglect their duties? or are they only in "rich temples"?
Aparna Krishnan Temples are part of the ancient culture, and the learnings would be structured differently. Was that adhered to ? Or was it actually a 3 month certificate ? Then I suppose it needs deeper work.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula sorry, I have seen enough bumbling priests in all temples, and I do visit quite a few of them!
The Govt decides the training based on recommendations from learned scholars.
When we ask for priesthood for all castes, they say they aren't qualified. When they are trained and come back, they say the training is fake. This is classic Hindutva MO!
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Agamas were put in during a specific period by humans and are a set of guidelines, which any human who is trained can perform. The discipline needed for it is what matters, not birth!
Aparna Krishnan The discipline and the learning of the verses and the intonation is what I am also referring to.
Aparna Krishnan Also, is becoming a temple priest such an aspirational thing anyway ? My village boys want to do 'degree', not one will want to become vadhiyar - and would not if you offered a fat pay packet !
Aparna Krishnan It is more a strrategy to address the caste concerns ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula It's about individual's aspirations.
The Alwars & the Nayanmars are not Brahmin only. Service to God is one of the many paths to God as believed by the people. Why is it inconceivable that non Brahmins might aspire to serve God too? or has that also become exclusive by birth?
Periyar an avowed Atheist helped Dalits gain temple entry. The strangehold on priestly occupations is justified merely by birth. That is not correct in this day and age.
Aparna Krishnan Well, brahmins I know are certianly not aspiring for priesthood - more for USA ! So it was a genuine question. Yes, as a policy and a position I agree.
Ananda Ganesh When it was turned against the brahmins, it ceased to be a collective one. Castiests cannot solve the problems of India for they serve the colonial masters for their own benefits.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Reservations are not applicable for all FCs who account for 16-18% of the population. How did it become something only against Brahmins? That's a myopic view.
Land Ceiling affected the same FCs, how come not a single anti-reservation activist is talk...See more
Aditi Jayakar Kane To give you another perspective Aparna Krishnan, a young doctor I know working in KEM hospital Mumbai says due to reservation, there are dozens of undeserving doctors in the hospital who care zilch about patients' health. As a result there is a death a week in the pediatrics ward due to sheer negligence. Wrong medicines are prescribed and patients' health is taken for granted. Who suffers? The poor as they are the only ones who will go to KEM now, with the deteriorated standards. It's OK to stand up for reservation for the poor, but are we really helping them in the larger picture? Reservation can be held for clerical or some admin jobs, certainly not where merit for greater good is needed.
Aparna Krishnan This is classism and casteism ma. I have a neighbour,56 year old SC lady who thro; the quota system became a doctor, and is well respected in Chittoor. Yes, they come thro' poor schools and it would be desirable to give them supportive classes. The ones who make it would be phonomenally hardworking, that I can attest. please refer to Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula's link given below.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula ://m.timesofindia.com/.../Is-it.../articleshow/46678784.cms
We can all talk in hyperbole, proof is in the pudding. Tamilnadu is at the top in socioeconomic development because of reservations.
Do read if you want to understand reality!
"Reservation can be held for clerical or some admin jobs", wow is this 2016!
Is it time to question Tamil Nadu’s quota policy? - Times of India
Ruling against central reservation for Jats, the…
Aparna Krishnan The most well meaning people are actually scared that reservation will cause flyovers to collapse and heart attacks to be misdiagnozed! There is much work needed to disabuse people of these notions Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula.
Aparna Krishnan And yes, insofar as they fear lower quality, the onus is on everyone to design processes whereby the poor could be helped when they get into professional courses after a long struggle and the reservation process. And, of course, improve the primary education - which gets more dismal by the day in villages.
Aparna Krishnan It means deeper and greater commitment to reservations, not less !!
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna, AIIMS loaded with the meritorious upper castes has them flocking to the West, while TN medical colleges create doctors who have made it the best state in healthcare by miles; both for the masses and the medical tourists. If anyone still talks about quality, let them keep rambling.
Aparna Krishnan Precisely - drain, brain, drain ...
Aparna Krishnan Aditi, yes, the child or rich doctor parents will make a better doctor than the child of landless SC parents. But the latter do deliver as per the article. Also the onus is on us to deliver to the latter. The case cannot be to weaken reservations, but to strengthen it with better pre and post support, isnt it.
The myopic view of the Anti-reservations see the underprivileged reaching the Education system via reservation as a unitary view against how they reach the same milestone. They conveniently discount the uphill task for the same SC/ST candidate to reach to a point where they are able to knock on the door taking all the challenges in their stride which an upper caste never ever has to encounter. Same applies for the after math of the Education where there is still huge social stigma attached to the underprivileged socially. Economy is not the only thing which binds them! This also tells us that the upper castes are only concerned about the economical disadvantage while for the lower castes that is only one of the disadvantages they face!