Saturday, 5 August 2017

From Dress Codes to Morality

Some years ago friend went for an IIT interview for a teaching position in a white khadi dhoti and kurta. And was rejected.

Shyamala Sanyal IIT failed.
Aparna Krishnan I was in US for a year working out of my 3 years in 'job' after studies, before I retired. There seeing every Indian try to look more american than the american in dress and accent, my dress veered to the saree, and my accent became more tamil ! the educated indian is quite hopelessly enslaved.

Aparna Krishnan I have grown to like accented English. Tamil accented, Bangali accented, Malyaali accented.

Naveen Manikandan Periasamy Also, not to mention the plight of the ABCDs. Brought up by Indian parents speaking their native tongue, but picks up only yank english from fellow schoolkids and detests those rare visits to India for reasons as simple as lack of toilet papers.

Aparna Krishnan i dont even think of them much. i rue our city children who despise villages as 'backward'.
Aparna Krishnan Every single assumption has to be questioned today. Every conditioning has grown very very deep. Especially where we reject ourselves and our cultural identities.

Palanivelu Rangasamy In our country, the educated elites are incorrigible slaves.

Sukumar Mukhopadhyay Slaves of whom?

Aparna Krishnan of westernisation, and of western theories. matched by a contempt for things indian.
Sukumar Mukhopadhyay Aparna KrishnanWhat about the theories of Hegel, Marx and Keynes and Schumpeter and Arrow and Picketty? Do you throw away Aristotle ? Jean Paul Sartre? In medicine what about the latest method operation of huge prostrate which the West has invented? Even Homeopathy some people consider as unscientific both in India and abroad but it is practised in France, Australia (not Germany) and many countries throughout the world. I have seen Indians and ABCD in plenty but they are very good.  Since you have passed from Indian Institute of Science, I am ready to discuss with you , if you agree. But you have to be patient and not cut short abruptly.

Aparna Krishnan IISc is part of my ancient past, abd very irrelevent. My only real context and paradigm is a village. Also i am not very widely read. i have read limitedly, but have thought about those as I have had time. i would put my primary texts as the Gita and Gandhi. I know nothing of economics. yes, I know ayurveda is some detail.

Aparna Krishnan I also have far greater respect for my illiterate village neighnours' wisdom that for all that IIT and IISc have to offer. They are OK in their place, i guess.

Sukumar Mukhopadhyay Aparna Krishnan--All types of knowledge have their respective places. I tried to cure my osteo- arthritis by going to the best of Ayurveda practitioners and could not get cure. I tried homeopathy with the best known doctor. Only western educated orthopedist is curing me. On the other hand when I had back pain , the orthopedists could not cure me. But Yoga did. So everything has place in life. Ii is not wise to discard something just because you think some Indian aspects of thinking are valid. Sure they are. But if you read only Gita and Gandhi,for your guidance, then, I am sorry to say, your thinking will remain very limited. Please enlarge your knowledge. I have read Gita and Gandhi but that is not all. Gandhi has many defects which you can see if you read it scientifically.

Aparna Krishnan My thinking was widened beyond all expectations by Eashwaramma and Annasamy Anna and others - all of them technically illiterate :). So there is no need to feel sorry for me !

Aparna Krishnan That little bit of knowlege that gives the power to live a life of integtrity and deep honesty is all that matters in my understanding. I do not seek many theories and analyses. I did that in my youth. Then became wiser ...

Sukumar Mukhopadhyay Aparna Krishnan --If you had told me earlier that you had read also Eashwaramma and Annasamy Anna and others, I would not have said what I am supposed to have said, though I have not actually said what you thought I had said.

Palanivelu Rangasamy Sukumar Mukhopadhyay In our side there is a saying: "The dog having two masters died of starvation". You have asked, "Slaves of whom?" They are slaves to lot many things and so their fate is like that of the above mentioned proverbial dog. Here "Slave", "Starvation", etc. are symbolic references to the current state of mind and retarded thinking. My argument is just to say that our mind and consequently the thinking process is not free. You have referred to lot many stalwarts: Aristotle, Hegel, Marx, Keynes, Schumpeter, Sartre, etc., etc. My God! Just tell me! Was any one of them against liberty, freedom and freethinking? By living borrowed life, not just our own tradition, we have insulted these western masters too. Their dream was not to convert every human being an automaton (a slave obviously).

Aparna Krishnan And Sukumarji, in the list why was Dharampal not mentioned. His facts and understanding is what is most needed for the Indian paradigm. Or the Mahabharatha on whose tenor the understanding the indian villages live out their lives. This is the enslavement I speak of. Rooted and understanding these, we can also understand every thought from every corner of the world. But not rootlessly.

Sankalp Patil Those Indians working in other countries (me included) are absolutely doing fine and living luxurious, happy and satisfied lives and obviously they need to work 9 hrs a day for that. What's the big deal? Slaves and forgetting culture and modernisation and westernisation and bla bla bla.

Palanivelu Rangasamy This is what Marx called as "False Consciousness"; using someone without giving them the hint that they are being used. This is perfectly so with corporate sector. Forget about all these bla blas like culture, westernisation, modernisation, etc. Do we realise our own being? The moment you say that you are fine with western kind of luxury, happiness and satisfaction, you have already drowned in the swamp.

Sankalp Patil 'Own being' ... I guess this leans towards the spiritual side of things. I was making a comment from a more material, everyday point of view.

Palanivelu Rangasamy Not just spiritual. Knowing oneself is pure pragmatism.

Sankalp Patil In India I get paid peanuts for working 10 hrs a day, living in a crowded Mumbai, away from my family for my job. There is no peace once out of office also, the streets are not clean, the buses/trains are heavily crowded, I need to share a 1bhk with 2 other people so that the rent gets shared. Since I moved to Saudi, I realised how important is it to have peace outside, once out of the office it helps mind stay calm. I find ample time for gym, swimming, watching my favorite series online and do a lot more things I couldn't do while in Mumbai.

Palanivelu Rangasamy I do agree with you to some extent Sankalp Patil. But here also people get paid enormously. The top boss in my last office was paid 4.5 lakhs per month (note it, not annual package). It was way back in 2010. Yes, ours is one of the densly populated countries (in 2014 around 426 people per square km). But see Singapore which has a population density of 7814 per square km for the same period. How they are able to make strides and get world attention? Whether we should follow their model is a different question altogether. What matters in any country is the commitment in the level of rulers and the citizens. We lack commitment in both the levels.

Palanivelu Rangasamy Slavish mindset is the fundamental dimension in our psyhe that prevents us from feeling for our country. My family may be poor, but I just can not dump it and run away to greener pasture. I have to take my family too along with me. Country is like an extended family. Unless and until citizens start having such attachment to the society, it is difficult to solve our issues.

Sankalp Patil I understand your viewpoint, but sending money from here to India is the best service I can do to my country right now. All those who work in foreign countries buy the flats and houses in Mumbai, Pune, Hyderabad, Chennai, Banagalore and keep the economy running. I think this is the best way to serve India at this moment, especially since I am in software field. Another doctor friend of mine chose to work in India, he had the option to work outside, in his profession we can understand why he did so. Btw, to get paid 4.5 lakhs per month in India as you said in the example, you have to be from IIT,IIms or you can dream of that after 20-30 years of slogging ;)

Palanivelu Rangasamy Buying flats and houses in Mumbai, Pune, Hyderabad, Chennai, Bangalore and keep Indian economy running? Great way indeed! Bring few people together, pool in part of your earning, adopt a village and see to it that that village blooms to new heights. Will it not be much more sane way of participating in the economic process of your mother land? These are all my feelings and understandings. Just brood over.

Aparna Krishnan :) i appreciate that you even responded to that Palanivelu Rangasamy !

Palanivelu Rangasamy It is nobody's fault. A generation in our country has not been helped to grow up with social concern and real patriotism. So the fault lies with the parents too. Day in and day out they were made to believe that there is nothing beyond economic success by any means. I am sure the other side, I mean the friends from other shores (also the dynamic youth who stayed back in the country) will actively participate towards the re-emergence of this great country.

Sankalp Patil There is no way we can earn enough to lift 1.2 billion lives unless the money comes from outside. Nobody will pool a part of their earning unless they have more than enough themselves. It is unjust to expect so under the guise of social concern and patriotism. And by the flats statement I meant that inflow of foreign funds is what keeps the country runnin and that is the economics of India which is linked to the economics of the world which is not going to change, whether you want to accept or not. May be Aparna can help a few eashwarammas by charity from friends, if all eashwarammas have to prosper, they have to find their place in this economy.

Aparna Krishnan Excuse me, Eashwaramma only wants a part in the economy. And that is all I desire too. In times of drought charity has a place too. And for giving them a place in the economy, we need to come together to put their needs to sell also at a priority - that is a moral position. And morality is not a bad word - I hope.

Palanivelu Rangasamy Sankalp Patil It is a total collective responsibility, neither an individual nor a group can do it. 'Having more than enough' is not a concrete definition. You know very well about the need and greed of human mind. By the way, this country does not survive because of foreign fund, but shouldered by the faceless millions who consume the least and contribute the most. Most of the educated think that this country survives because of them. Rather they are the real liability. 'Economics of the world is not going to change': Look into the history. Has anything remained without change? The current economic paradigm will also go. If the change comes by itself, it will be violent. Otherwise, if we bring it in, it is possible to avoid that violence.

Sankalp Patil But the change has to come on its own demanded again by the nature of economics. Example today india is the service provider of the world, tomorrow it can be Brazil if they have skilled people at lower costs. The changes you and Aparna suggest are idealistic and I do not believe something like that will ever happen on the basis of goodwill alone. Morality is definitely a good word Aparna, but we cannot make a system based on morality , for its vague and subject to different interpretations. We are past the "we can bring in" the change society, sorry. We are corrupt n self centered beyond repair.

Aparna Krishnan Please let each person speak for themselves. one may chosse to be self centred beyond repair. Or one may choose to repair it.

Palanivelu Rangasamy Sankalp Patil Systems can survive only when there is morality. Morality is not a frill to do away with. This is the core around which any society has to evolve, otherwise violent collapse is inevitable.Whatever may be the intensity of problems, nothing is beyond redemption.
Palanivelu Rangasamy Aparna Krishnan Anyone can repair oneself, but their should be a realisation that something has to be repaired. This realisation is fundamental.

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