Saturday 27 March 2021

Caste Discussions - Vidyasankar,Himakiran etc

 



The discourse is changing. Technically a poor SC by 'studying hard' can become a doctor. His 'caste' cannot stop him in modern times. What stops him or her are a million details of poverty and malnutrition and non functioning government schools and prejudices. Which will exist even in a society sans 'caste system'. There is much to do, and sometimes we seem to expend energies in flogging old horses, ignoring the newer, yonger and more powerful ones.
T.R. Shashwath Breaking (forced) endogamy means the end of the caste system. If the system of endogamy collapses, so will caste, and with it, a lot of traditional knowledge. It *will* happen sometime in the future.
Vidyasankar Sundaresan What will happen is that new castes will be formed by breaking up the old caste boundaries. Even if not forced, endogamy is part of human behavior, because people always end up marrying those who are "like us" as opposed to "them." In the USA, a doctor's daughter rarely ever marries a janitor's son.
Sailesh Bhupalam janitors son can very well become a doctor though, but can a dalit ever become a brahmin?
Vidyasankar Sundaresan That is a not a problem that will be solved by putting a forcible end to endogamy. And the obstacles in the way of a janitor's son becoming a doctor are increasing in number and difficulty nowadays. Again, part of human behavior.
27 Comments
Share

Comments

  • Sailesh Bhupalam
    That sounds like a total denial of all the maladies of caste and just attributing all the baggage to class.
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 5y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Not at all. But please face the new castes !! And therin the EnglishEducated are the highest ranking. I think we need to start attacking ourselves along with the 'brahmin priests' of yore.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 5y
  • Komakkambedu Himakiran
    New castes? They've already been formed.
    2
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 5y
    Hide 24 Replies
    • Vidyasankar Sundaresan
      Newer and newer castes are being formed everyday! And often by the same people who conveniently have a copy of the manusmriti handy, just to burn it.
      2
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
      • Edited
    • Aparna Krishnan
      The ability to think deeply and honestly, to hold a quest to the logical end, and to have the concern for real answers is not there. I simply see some superficial noise, mob mentality as to choosing issues, and then huge egos. Biggesr than mine in people half my age.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Let's go by the definition of Smriti, it's a set of laws applicable to a particular period of time. Beyond that period it's not applicable. When we see people who want to enforce outdated laws, we protest and burning it is symbolic of resistance.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Vidyasankar Sundaresan
      Burn away, for it's mostly an empty and meaningless gesture. 🙂 Nothing that can be compared to burning a Koran or a Bible. And the real world effect of burning a copy of MS is as empty and meaningless as the act of burning itself!
      2
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
      • Edited
    • Aparna Krishnan
      i would not generally burn a book to show disdain, or a plough for that matter. But maybe thats just a personal thing. Anyway getting the activists to recognize that the tufted brahmin they love to hate has been replaced by the EnglishElite (whicg possibly is them also) is what is the challenge !
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Flogging the brahmin priest is passe, and burning the MS. If you think that they all recognize that the brahminism they are questioning then includes the Elteness they are also probably part of, I wonder. 
      Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Vidyasankar Sundaresan
      Aparna Krishnan
      , I don't object to burning any book. Many an old pundit has expressed a wish born out of despair, to burn his manuscripts along with his dead body. And I've heard of many instances where such wishes have been carried out too, by descendants who chose to honor a dying man's wish over preserving a written record of a knowledge tradition. Not to mention the apathy of our govt libraries, which have allowed countless texts to become food for moths, cockroaches, ants and termites, for almost a century now. Who knows how many unique texts have been lost in such ways? Burning a printed copy of the Manusmriti as a symbol of protest is peanuts in comparison.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
      • Edited
    • Aparna Krishnan
      i know. still, i would not burn any religious text i think, because it may make someone feel humiliated. and thats not the point ever. there are more substantial ways of engagement and protest. And the manchester cloth was not burnt to humiliate, coming to think of it.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Mark Johnston
      Most of the women and (for a long time) the children who worked the power looms in dreadful factory conditions in and around Manchester for a pittance, having been cleared off their land by enclosures would have felt a lot of empathy for the people of India. Boycotts and non cooperation are powerful tools but it is hard to predict which individuals will lose their livelihoods. Gandhi was of course well aware of the complexities and did not lightly make his choices.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      But there was no resentment ?
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Mark Johnston
      For some there would have been resentment, for others a sense of solidarity. I would hope the better informed would have been able to see that the injustice meted out to the Indian people was worse even than that suffered by themselves.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Symbolism represented by burning of that book, will be lost on people who weren't/aren't Shudras; no amount of empathising can make people understand what it is to be on this side of the fence.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Manu Smriti is not a religious text by any measure. It's at best the IPC of those days. We all know how laws are made and social change cannot happen without breaking them.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Vijayvithal Jahagirdar
      Burning MS at least ensures that the printer of MS has a market for his book. The first time I heard about MS was from mayawati and other activists a few decades back. My knowledge about its content is only that what the activist highlights,
      Every time there is a book burning, I and many others end up adding that book to my to read list. So maybe the book burners are defeating their goals by giving excessive publicity to a book which people have stopped reading for generations!
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      It's actually good if people read it, as they will be disgusted by it which only helps us. There is a sugar coated effort to push it into the mainstream by Hindutva types; people like us sense it immediately but many don't.
      Just like the Havells fan ad which the subtle messaging of which many people won't, mainstream discourse is dominated by Hindutva thoughts these days. Unless we highlight it, our own people will be slow poisoned.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Vijayvithal Jahagirdar
      Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula
       It does not matter how disgusting certain sections of a document are. Every text is a product of its time.
      The old testament has multiple instances of God sanctioning Rape and demanding a share in the women captured during war.
      If I want to antagonize a Christian I can keep referring to these sections and burn the bible every second day.
      I can do the same with the Quran,
      Why go for documents written thousands of years back? I can do the same with any piece of literature written at the beginning of the previous century.
      I can find fault in the writings of Gandhi, Ambedkar, Savarkar, Gowalkar, Smith, Marx, Mao, Lenin etc. If all I do is find faults I would not learn anything from the thoughts of these gentlemen.
      Every generation we have a "generation gap" where we discard some of the thoughts of those who are 10-20 years older to us as outdated, unjust etc.
      If I decide to read a book which is a few thousand years old I would do the same thing, I would discard that which I feel is irrelevant and absorb that which makes sense.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Vijayvithal Jahagirdar
      Regarding the Havell ad, I see it in the light of the Patel and Jat agitation. I see it as representative of the creamy layer debate.
      I see it as a person declaring that I am finally at a stage where I can compete with others on equal footing and will not use the quota system.
      I look forward to the time where like in other countries we start celebrating communities fighting to come out of the backward tag as opposed to todays India where communities are fighting against socio-economic census least it revels that they are no longer backward.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Why do you have to jump to other religions? When I target another religion, when my own religion has faults, then I am letting my religion down!
      I am called a Hindu and in my name religious & political groups are creating havoc. I will question that and fight them. why do you think the book was burnt or is burnt? You make it seem like, we unearthed long lost books and are burning them!
      Manu Smriti represents the worst form of Brahminical hegemony. Even today, Brahminical Supremacists will not denounce it, and will find ways to bring it back to the mainstream. That's the reason why burning of that book is symbolic of resistance to Brahminical hegemony.
      Gandhi, Ambedkar, Savarkar, Gowalkar, Smith, Marx, Mao, Lenin all wrote a lot of stuff, none of which is banned anywhere. But Mein Kampf is banned in most countries, and for a reason.
      Please don't simplify this issue.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Komakkambedu Himakiran
      Some of us can dream about such a society, while the rest of will actually work for it.
      People who oppose reservations with the merit argument, will be quiet about management quota. Such hypocrites.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Vijayvithal Jahagirdar
       The Havell ad is deeply violative and destructive in the here and now to a significant part of society. What equality we desire and hope for in the distant future is not relevent.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Vijayvithal Jahagirdar
      Are people really quite about management quota? I have heard many doctors commenting "Must be from management quota" about their colleagues who do not have the same level of skill as them.
      As of today in the merit debate, I see a hierarchy with graduates from Central Govt institutes at top, followed by state govt institutes followed by private institutes followed by both the caste and management quota.
      For all practical purpose the gap between General and OBC quota is shrinking. Aspirants for higher studies equally see both Management(Will any middle class aspirant pay a crore+ for a medical seat?) and Caste Quota as anti Merit.
      I have seen more discussion and outrage regarding management quota compared to the caste based reservations...
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      Those who curse the reservation system, send their wards to the management quota. Very few who are wealthy stay principled and refuse to admit their child into paid seats. But they will also abuse reservation. Hypocrites only. Or retarded.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
      • Edited
    • Vijayvithal Jahagirdar
      with 90+% of India earning less than 5000 p.m. people who can afford management seat are in a minority. I would reserve my contempt for both those who go to expensive schools like DPS etc and then use caste quota for higher education and those who use management quota.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
    • Aparna Krishnan
      yes, that creamy layer needs to be addressed. but not by throwing snide comments at reservation itself - on which many many needy are dependent. Havells ad stays abominable and reeks of superiority.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4y
Posted by at

No comments:

Post a Comment

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)