Monday, 13 June 2016

FB Discussions - Brahmin bashing and cabbages ...

I wish the brahmin bashing would end. The reality gets lost when everything is called a brahminical ploy.
There is an SC community and a non SC community. The non SC are made of different community groupings, and they pull along among themselves. The Reddys feel richer, the Naidus feel wiser, the Brahmins feel holier. Each feels most superior to the other. The SC community is deeply violated, and every non SC community is equally implicated. And the matter begins and ends there.
At least among the Tamil brahmins, my own community which I know of closely, many have packed up and left for the land of greenbucks, USofA. I think its pointless bashing them any more, as they are not there at all ! The few who are poor temple priests are also not capable of exploiting much today !

Aparna Krishnan As Nagesh said Brahminical is different from Brahmin.. If people wish to call all upper caste 'brahminical', I suppose thats their wish. I find it obfuscating, and thereby the other upper classes, equally explotative of the SC, can point fingers at the brahmins instead of looking deeply within and correcting themselves.
 Aparna Krishnan Pointing fingers at others and going on flag marches demanding the others be judged, to the exclusion of examining oneself, is the modern day style.
 Bindhu Vinodh Hinduism is a vertical pyramid of horrors where people at top of the pyramid exploit and oppress everyone below them. Brahmins are at the top of the pyramid and followed by other groups - SC/ ST at the bottom most. So everyone at the other levels of the pyramid - has a bit of " brahminism " in them.
 Bindhu Vinodh None of the temple priests are poor - it is the most easy way to make easy money - reserved for brahmins. First - why should the job of priest / pujaris be reserved for brahmins? God willnt listen to the prayers of other caste people? These are the convenient rules created by brahmins to continue to have superiority over the society they live in.
 Vijayvithal Jahagirdar I personally know lots of temple priests who are leading a hand to mouth existence...
Aparna Krishnan "Hinduism is a vertical pyramid of horrors where people at top of the pyramid exploit and oppress everyone below them." ... too textbookish ma. I agree that the SC reality is a horror. But the Naidus and Reddys are Balijas are quite fine holding omto their local practices and each felling the best in the world !!
Jagga Lalgudy Bindhu Vinodh - while I am of the opinion that one need not go to a temple at all and I can pray as I am walking, reading, listening to music in the language that I know or comfortable at that moment of praying, I feel there is no need for an agent or a special language to pray to God. That is utter stupidity of a human being to feel the need for an agent - a priest and fatten him. Then complain that he is making more money, while it is the selfish motive of the "innocents" to believe and bribe by putting money in the hundi, paying the priest. And above all please realise, that while praying to God, you are talking to yourself - so you are GOD!
Bindhu Vinodh Vijayvithal Jahagirdar For a hand to mouth existence - all that a brahmin has to do is to be a priest in a small temple - a safe job which is jot physically taxing . But to earn the same living - a dalit has to do the dirty job of sweeping , dealing with garbage bare hands , drowning in the sewage etc.
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar Bindhu Vinodh you are making lots of assumptions which may be correct in large or urban temples but are false in smaller ones.
Many who take up priesthood do so because worshipping certain god in certain temple is the hereditary responsibility of their family.
Many such temples are in remote villages or in wilderness where hardly anyone goes. So assuming that priesthood brings any income for these priests is incorrect. For many it is a question of their belief and a question of their devotion.
Sometimes this responsibility is divided among members of the family and at regular intervals they take a year off from their job to fulfil their responsibility and live off their savings during this period. You can very well imaging the impact on the career of a person who takes a year off every 3-4 years.
Some priests have given up their jobs and entered priesthood because they found the local temple abandoned and in ruins with no one offering daily pooja and felt that it was their duty to do so.

Many a priests are under a religious vow to eat nothing but exactly a handful of cooked rice every day. No Sambar, No Rasam, No Salt, No Sugar, No second serving, nothing but exactly one handful of plain cooked rice...

Many enter priesthood out of a sense of duty and not because it is economically rewarding.

Sitting in an AC office, on a cushioned chair, with subsidized meals and free coffee, earning a salary which puts us in the top 10% of indians, It is easier to say that the job of a priest is not physically taxing or a hand to mouth existence is what they deserve, but walking a few steps outside our comfort zone, roaming the villages, studying the government reports which indicate that the median monthly per capita income of a priest is around 5-6 hundred rupees gives us a different picture.
Lakshman Kumar Madame, there exists temples other than Tirupati and SriRangam, where there are men who were serving just by getting peanuts..... Throwing comments of generalization in thin air is very easy, but a bit of study will help....
Bindhu Vinodh A few days ago, four dalit youngsters died in a septic tank. Isn't that a vitiated condition already? How is it that the deans and directors of all the top institutes are brahmins and upper caste, and the boys that die diving in sewers are dalit? Is it just a matter of chance that we don't hear of some 20-year old Seshagiri Iyengar or 35-year old Ramasubramania Sastry losing his life at work while cleaning sewers? Does that chance have something to do with privilege? Is it the result of a human system or some divine pre-ordination? Why can't we have few seats in menail jobs reserved for upper caste ?
Bindhu Vinodh Coming yo the priest topic - none of you answered why shouldnt that job be open to everyone who qualifies for it rather than reserving it for brahmins?
Aparna Krishnan The potter was potterring, the weaver was weaving, the priest was priesting. Anyway in the here and now, none of them want to do any of those ma. Schooling-for-all is the mantra. A mantra to nowhere. And that is my current concern.
Lakshman Kumar I personally support the judgement that rules the priestship in temples cannot be based on birth but with following Aagama principles. Though I am reluctant in agreeing with the later part that sanctum sanctorium is preserved for a particular class, I believe in respecting the sentiments and beliefs of believers.
Lakshman Kumar Bindhu - I don't think you would have also heard any A Chettiyar, B Gounder, C Mudhaliyar, D Vanniyar, E Devar, F Reddy, G Naidu, H Singh, I Gowda, X Lingayat, J Nayar, K Kamma dying in a sewage ? Have you ? The manual scavenging is a worst black hole in society along with other atrocities towards Dalit brothers and every individual who doesn't does the manual scavenging is responsible for this along with Govt... Targeting a particular community and pack them with a set of blames to wash our hands is venomous.. nothing else
Aparna Krishnan That brahmin-baiting is a baggage that a certian ideology carries. I for one have largely learnt to ignore it. There is an SC and a non-SC. They like to call the latter category brahmins. It doesnt matter much to me personally, but I think it detracts from understand the issue properly and thus addressing it wholly.
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar Bindhu Vinodh you are welcome to undergo the required training in vedas and pooja paddati and become a priest of a Temple because frankly speaking most brahmins do not want to do it anymore smile emoticon

In Bangalore there is a place called vidhyapeetha near banshankari where kids as young as six year old stay in a residential gurukul system for 10-15 years learning the shashtra's inorder to qualify for being a pandit, There are many such institutions run by various communities across the country you can select any such institution for training to be a pandit and priest in a temple patronized by members of that community.

Since an illiterate farmer cannot aspire to be a S/W engineer in google without spending time learning the domain similarly you cannot aspire to be a priest in a temple catering to the needs of a particular community without being trained in the scriptures and philosophies of that community

Most of the communities have their own temples where the priest belong to the same community.
I have seen temples with SC priests, temples with ST priests and for that matter there are temples in India where the priest is a muslim.
Aparna Krishnan There are many occasions where in a caste based society, caste is irrelevant. Anandiah is the priest at the Aanjaneyalu temple in the Reddy village of Varadappanaidupeta. The Maalapalle washerman, though lower in caste, is the priest in all the Maalapalle Gangamma functions. In the Bharatam story and drama celebrations, caste divisions do not exist. All castes together pull the tapasu maanu pole during the Bharatam. Woman of all castes together circle the tree in dripping clothes to pray for a child.
The utter generosity of the poor humbles us. They give rice to every mendicant even when their rice is getting over. That is what needs to be understood - their greatnes and their richness. That is what they are defined by. That they are impoverished is what defines us. We are the cause of that pove…
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar Bindhu Vinodh Regarding your comment about reservation in menial jobs from brahmins, Brahmins will actually welcome it with joy. Please agitate for this, all brahmins will support you.

you might find the results of a google search on "brahmin economic status" informative.
Quoting from one of the results
Today 75% of all domestic help and cooks are Brahmins.
Over 50% of rickshaw pullers in Delhi (not the auto rickshaw the manual one) are Brahmins
The 50 Sulabh sauchalaya in Delhi are manned by Brahmins
In Karnataka the per capita income for a brahmin is Rs 537 which is the lowest among all caste.
The priest job in a large temple that you eye pays a handsome salary of Rs 300, This is after 15-20 years of intensive formal study

Maybe, Just maybe, it is time to leave pre conceived bias and hate towards a particular community behind and look at the world through secular non-casteist eyes smile emoticon

French Journalist Francois Gautier, having spent nearly two decades in India, finds reservations for…
Bindhu Vinodh The problem, however, is that it is almost impossible to have an open discussion about caste with Brahmins. My experience is that there are usually three types of reactions to any attempt to start a rational debate:
-We are not responsible for what our ancestors did. This is not an acceptable argument. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, the bell tolls for thee! We are all responsible for the whole of humanity-we are our brothers' keepers. We may not be directly culpable, but we certainly are morally bound to admit that where we are today was built on the exploitation of others. As citizens, we need to have a proper sense of history and of the past. The bad things cannot be denied, when we continue to take advantage of the good ones. This is simply the argument for the status quo. Once we adopt this point of view, we deny the need for any change.
Brahmins resemble Jews in some ways, though they have not been persecuted as viciously as the Jews. They are a small, closely knit group of persons, with very clear notions about how separate and special they are when compared to the rest of society. Remember what Robert Burns said:
Would some power the gift(ie) give us,
Bindhu Vinodh The second response to an open discussion about caste is to say that these things, that is exploitation of lower castes, no longer happens. This is a very dangerous thing to say, when the truth is exactly the opposite and when Brahmins have such a large role in making and implementing policies to improve the lot of the lower castes. Like ostriches, many of the Brahmins I know, simply put their heads in the sand and pretend that everybody is equal
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar Bindhu Vinodh Good to see that you are stating that Brahmins are not open to debate on a discussion started by a Brahmin 
Bindhu Vinodh Yes..started by a brahmin on a defensive side that they aren't responsible for this inequality.
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar Bindhu Vinodh, how different is your theory of "pay for the sins of ancestors" to a similar theory from RSS which wants Muslims and Christians to pay for the genocide launched by their ancestors?
Lakshman Kumar I'll defend any singular group targeted for the responsibility of a complete society and generation, Yes, Brahmins were also part of this evil as they shared the power with all other dominant castes in pre independence era... After Independence, the power got moved on to other other levels in Pyramid, this is gradual and natural... But your argument of paying for sins of ancestors is highly venomous... What do you expect ? To go on a genocide on Brahmins just Hitler did for Jews, quoting his initial days... ?
Bindhu Vinodh I have a solution though which I would like to suggest to you. It is a derived solution which has succeeded admirably in a similarly divided country elsewhere. I have always admired the masterly manner in which Mandela, Desmond Tutu and the others handled the post-apartheid social and political revolution in South Africa. The Commission for Truth and Reconciliation was a brilliant success-it simply brought all the inequities of apartheid into the open and it offered forgiveness, not punishment, to those who had been violent and murderous.
Aparna Krishnan Bindu, I opened the discussion to expand the culpability to the entire non-SC tribe, including the brahmins. I have nowhere in any post stated that we (the non SC) are free of the oppressions of the ages that the SC have sufferred. It was precisely with that understanding that after finishing my studies, I moved to an SC village which has been home since then. And twenty years have gone by there. It is precisely this noisy shouting Bindu that detracts from all reasonable discussions. Yes, and I question my friends and family of all catses when they do not, after all the priviliges thropugh youth, throw in their lot with the disadvantaged. And not just on FB debates ma.
Bindhu Vinodh If we could only get higher castes ( inc. me and I admit it rather than defend) to admit that bad things are being done to lower castes, to accept that such things should not continue, to vow that this will be stopped by common action, then lower castes could be persuaded to forgive ancient crimes and biases. But forgiveness can come, as Christians believe, only first with admission of a wrong and confession. South Africa succeeded because of the strong Christian ethos and its emphasis on forgiveness. Unfortunately, Hinduism has no such polar principle around which to rally its believers.
Lakshman Kumar And your blanketing argument doesn't help in a discussion.... You talk to some random individuals and make it a statement of the whole community has very little sanity.... With all due respect, How much talks you had done with other Feudal communities? No, just not to draw parallels - was curious on why people are so interested to crucify Brahmins alone
Aparna Krishnan Sure Bindu, that strategy also needs to be followed up. Of the non-SC community facing and accepting the reparations due. How do we go about it ? It is a worthwhile procedure.
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar I was not aware of the refereed commission and checked the Wikipedia page on the commission for truth and ..., I wonder how is it applicable to India? The commission only looked at the cases from 1960 onwards the oppressed party and the oppressor were both alive and present at that time. The commission was about state sponsored human right abuse. The guilty were granted amnesty instead of paying for their crimes...
The brahmin bashing in India mostly takes place based on some unaddressed crime pre independence. Unless you are thinking of dragging 90 year old grandfathers and grandmothers from their death bed to confront their oppressor or oppresee you are looking for asking for people to demand apology for an sin which they are not sure whether it was committed and by whom.
post independence we already have various legal safeguards where an oppressed person can prosecute his oppressor, or do you feel that the present atrocities act is inadequate?
Aparna Krishnan We, the non-SC can publicly acknowlege that for generations the SCs have been violated by us, and then maybe reparations and positive affirmation will be more meaningfully addressed. Now the upper class talk nonsense of how undeserved reservation is harming them, and saying 'make the starting line equal' !! Thats exactly what we are trying to do with reservation et al.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula While I agree with many of your points, a few points on why this issue will never go away. Control of media, upper bureaucracy, Judiciary is a big factor in actual outcomes for many issues. While there are many Brahmins who do good work on the field, a few simply use their powers to dictate terms and policies, which have a profound impact on society. 

This is the problem that needs to be addressed. Just take "The Hindu" for eg., they have always taken an antagonistic stand to what the people feel in any issue here. When the AWBI VP says they are more evolved than us,what does it mean? He is in a position to cause impact and has done it too with the Jallikattu ban. 

Just read up on Judicial reforms as well as implementation of Mandal Commission in Union Govt jobs. 

p.s.: I never support or condone targeting of individuals just because they are from a certain community, nor do I target communities as such. It's certain thought processes and belief systems that we question, that is across all privileged communities.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, thanks for that point. Which you had mentioned earlier sometime also I remember. I agree that they are not that harmless because as you say they inhabit the intellectual corridors of power and the impact of their biases can be vast.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Again, I take the liberty with Brahmins a lot more than I do with any other community apart from my own, as I've a vested interest in them being true to their roots!
Aparna Krishnan  why ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Just see any development, globalization, centralization agenda and you will also find many supporters who are Brahmin. There are a few opposers too, but they are not in the positions of power or influence. Similarly it's even harder for a non Brahmin person to go against this agenda and make an impact. 

What MS Swaminathan did and what Nammalvar did are classic examples of this. It took MS Swaminathan a few years to spread the chemical driven, hybrid monocropping while it took Nammalvar a lifetime to barely scratch the surface. 

Just google Neeya Naana episode of GMOs and see who are the people defending that and the power they wield through media, policy makers and corporates.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula For me it doesn't matter if a 1000 Hindutva supporting Brahmins come, but it will matter if my village Brahmin loses his roots!
Aparna Krishnan  Why does the village brahmin become that important.
Aparna Krishnan What was Nammalwar's caste ? As to Swaminathan's successes, it was possibly more because he was speaking the dominant corporate langauge when he supported chemical farming, than due to his Brahmin genes ! When later he came out in support of farmers and organic farming methods to an extent, he was ignored !
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula When my village Brahmin loses his roots, he will promote the centralized religious & cultural practices. He will not have the good of the village in mind but what suits his survival and propagation of his belief systems.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Nammalvar was from a agricultural community. Again just look at how he handled it and how MSSwaminathan handled it. 

Nammalvar chucked the perverted system and dug up our roots for answers. 

Swaminathan blamed the farmers for using excessive amount of chemicals!
Aparna Krishnan "but it will matter if my village Brahmin loses his roots". Why ?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Because we use him to resolve contentious issues, out of respect. But if he loses his roots, his judgment will always be suspect.
Aparna Krishnan Today also ? In our village madhyasthams all castes are represented. If it is in dalitwada, the dalit elders sit together. Our area actually has no brahmin at all that i know of !
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Till date, especially when it comes to rituals etc. you do realise if there is one community that can shut up our Naidu egos, it's the Brahmins.
Aparna Krishnan Maybe the village brahmins maintain the austerity that is part of their code. i hold no brief for the city brahmins !
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Yes, I'm yet to meet a single Brahmin person who never left the village, talk about Hindutva! Hindutva influences only uprooted people. When people lose their roots, they talk about nation, dangers of evangelism, military might, etc. 

Rooted people will not talk about these things but about local economy, decentralization, diversity etc.
Arun Tamilah i have seen brahmins supporting sc quota and helping in studies too. same time there are many dominating on them. to say the fact though their mind supports sc as a human their genetic and intteligence over powers it. but they are also good hearted. we cannot hide full pumpkin uder our food
Manish Pandit Aparna Krishnan the tendency to reduce Hinduism to "the terrible caste system" is a typical construct of Pentecostal Christians. I can show you the FCRA accounts for NGO organisations where an amount greater than the entire budget of the navy is given to shore up this propaganda and hate in just one state of India.
Of course, our Indians swallow it hook, line and sinker, that is normal.... self hate comes easily.

This is a practised art which has reached humungous proportions where Hinduism is termed "dark" and its Hindus even "darker". Many videos exist from TN and AP of this problem.
Best part, this apartheid is swallowed by Indians in full.

Hinduism produced Jnaneshwar, Tukaram, Tulsidas, Meera bai, Vivekananda, Ramakrishna but of course none of these examples matter.... 
The British left but left their education system behind... this has eaten the nation like termites, what was remaining was finished by 60 years of neglect.
India is currently on its way to becoming slowly the war zone between two religions (like Nigeria): Pentecostals (not old style Christians mind you) and radical political Islam supported (unknowingly sometimes) by Communists.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula When Buddha took on the caste system and the Brahmins of the day, there was no Christianity or Evangelism. When Basavanna renounced caste oppression ridden Hinduism of the day, there was no evangelism. 

This whole attitude of attributing the revolt against caste oppression and Brahmanical thoughts to "Western" interventions is ridiculous and typical of the dismissive approach to counter opinion of the people.
Aparna Krishnan True. But again the response of the westernized Indians to negate everything to do with the caste formation of the fabric of this country is equally inane. One needs to face its reality, its strengths, the shamefulness of the Dalit fact, and act in a real manner.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Rightwingers will say left wingers are the problem, left wingers will say right wingers are the problem. We say both are the problem!
Manish Pandit Of course.... when Buddha "took on" caste, whatever he founded effectively still had Dharma systems in place... reincarnation, law of karma, even in most of Tibetan buddhism the deities and mantra system is similar.
When Babasaheb Ambedkar took on caste, he said various things about Islam n Christianity... but modern followers simply have very little mooring in those thoughts.

Remember one thing: hate never produces anything of substance, for that you require love.. Whether Gandhi, Mandela or Martin Luther King, they all accepted this basic fact of life.
Bringing up a generation of people to understand an idea of reduction of Hinduism to the caste system is not the right idea.
Where did yoga come from? Where did Ayurveda come from? Why do even Muslims worship Saraswati before they try and practice music? Why did Shakya muni Buddha worship Goddess Tara?
These questions require you to understand that Hinduism is NOT just the caste system.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula The greatest disservice to Hinduism is done by the loudest proponents. How many Brahmins have come out against the caste system? Or social justice? 

Is India a vegetarian country? How many are opposed to this homogenization project of one religion, one language one culture? How many support reservation? Just see who is sharing vitriol against reservation system? 

Most of the so called Hinduism proponents now are from the RSS school of thought and have read Rajiv Malhotra's book and all they do is undermine the genuine voices of Hindus themselves, the majority of who are non Brahmin and meat eaters too.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Why is it that any criticism of the ills of Hinduism is dismissed immediately? The very foundation of our value system is based on debate.
Aparna Krishnan There are 'notions' everywhere. Most english speaking people I suspect are not rooted in local communities. And then they lose a basic sensing of the country. And what the religion that people practice is actually, and the good and ills of every structure of the religion, starting from the caste system. It is all textbookish.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula True, the whole debate has been reduced to my books vs your books!
Manish Pandit Please debate then.... and learn to accept that sometimes what you have held true for years could also be wrong.
I am an experimenter with various mantras... for decades. I teach "Sc/St" people homa because they too have the right to learn but most importantly to experience "Bhagwan"/"Devatas" within their own body in this lifetime.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I've asked several question, please answer them. 

Very happy that you teach them all of that, but will you accept the fact that that was never their religion? In a way you are just proudly proclaiming evangelical efforts. 

Let's take the Ramayana for instance. Do you know how many versions of the same are there? There are versions where Sita is Raavana's daughter. There are versions where she is not exactly "virtuous". Now are these even discussed here? Any such discourse will be immediately banned and dismissed as Western influenced. 

No one here claims evangelists are saints, but to dismiss the thought processes of the subaltern as being only capable of influence and not self created is the patronizing attitude that needs to go. 

A tribe in Jharkhand mourns during Navaratri as for them Asuras were their ancestors.
Aparna Krishnan Here I would pause. What i have understood in the village is their all encompassing religion.They incorporatet sanskrit prayers, their own Gangamma and the animal sacrifices, a pilgrimage to Tirumala, a pilrimage to the local oracle who has manifestations of Yerpachchamma ... it is all sacred to them. The differentiation of Sanskrit and folk is in our minds
Aparna Krishnan But I agree that the sanskritized try to 'teach them', and this is utterly problematic.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula We need to understand that at some point of time, they were all "taught" these things. nothing wrong with that as long as we admit it. Ramanujar IMO was the greatest evangelist for bringing so many communities under Sri Vaishnavism. Can anyone deny that? 

We follow that and also our own nature & ancestor worship. As simple as that.
Aparna Krishnan they have the deep inner confidence to accept other traditions and incorporate. that is the indian way. The left negates all things indian. the right rejects everything it thinks is non-indian. only the village people are confident and assured.
Manish Pandit Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula heh heh. Read Ambedkar please. You compare Ramanujar with an Evangelical Christian? 
Whether it was prince Gautam, Vivekananda or Babasaheb Ambedkar, they were all sparks who came from the land of Bharata. They all questioned the present day concepts of their time. They all reformed systems. Ambedkar called Abrahamic religions as foreign to the nation of India and (therefore rejected Evangelicals)... made sure that SC/ST's would only convert to Buddhism. 
I am just pointing out that Ramanujar cannot be termed "evangelical" as the term has a particular connotation with rendering the person converted into an outsider. (not my words, but Babasaheb Ambedkar's)
Hindu systems are always open to reformers from within whether Ramanujar or Buddha (who BTW was born a Hindu and died a Hindu).

Aparna Krishnan "Sanskrit" is not the prerogative of Brahmanas... is the air you breathe the prerogative of just one group of people?
Does the Sun say every morning that I will only shine on one group of houses? 
Nevertheless even with nature you see that some people can take the Sunlight for hours without getting burnt, some get burnt by the Sun in just 30 mins. Who made this difference? Was it not created by nature?
So, differences in people exist, but even then the right thinking person should always try and emulate the Sun and try and give whatever he or she can to every person who comes to him or her.
Knowledge has to come from somebody or somewhere. 
Again let me quote Ambedkar here: "Sanskrit" should be the national language of India" was proposed by Ambedkar and shot down by Nehru.

Anyways, whether Jallikattu ban, Vemula issue (the person who was OBC but had SC certificate despite having converted to Christianity), even the problem with getting city dwellers to accept Ayurveda as a method of treatment.... all these derive from the stupidity of our education system which makes children indulge in a rat race, ensures that traditional knowledge based systems get screwed and ensures people grow up to be Mahesh Bhatt like figures.
When the system is preparing people to be selfish and Mahesh Bhatt like...... where will the Vivekanandas and Ambedkars come from?
Aparna Krishnan Sure, teach them. The leftists see it as Sanskritization. I do not. I know their capacity to take and stay rooted in vast. Their own wisdom is vast also. And yes, the onslaught of modernity and modern mindsets which teaches them to look down on their own is the greatest threat.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Please respond to all my questions. Otherwise no point in debating.
Manish Pandit Q"Very happy that you teach them all of that, but will you accept the fact that that was never their religion?" 

Ans: Your mind is still confused with the term "religion" which is an Abrahamic construct. The term religion does not apply to Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism.... they are "Dharmic" constructs 
Animism is very close to Dharmic constructs.

Q"Let's take the Ramayana for instance. Do you know how many versions of the same are there? There are versions where Sita is Raavana's daughter."+ "not exactly virtuous"
Ans: The day the world accepts difficult facts about their leaders, it will be a great thing, but an Utopian society was never in existence.
So if you question "Mayawati" or "Mulayam Singh yadav" or prophets of religions then you will get far worse in India then questioning Sita and versions of Ramayana.

Q. A tribe in Jharkhand mourns during Navaratri as for them Asuras were their ancestors.
Ans. Does India celebrate that or not? Devi worshippers celebrate Mahishasura. That is the boon given to him by Devi.
To go into Dharma, my dear, you have to immerse yourself in it. These questions will only answer themselves to you when you start chanting Saptashati Durga.

Long and short:
Inner truths are not so easy to fathom. Every scripture of Hinduism has an inner parallel which shows itself once you open yourself to it.
Love..... not Hate is the answer.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula 1) When you can use "isms" what's the problem with using "religion"?

You haven't answered my question, what you "teach" so patronizingly is not what their ancestors believed in. Call it religion or call it anything else.

2) Ok, so you accept that the system is far from Utopian. Wonder why you have no problem using a Western construct of Utopia here! 

The essay 300 Ramayanas is banned in India. 

3) Devi worshippers celebrate Mahishasura? Really? What's this story of a boon? The tribals believe their ancestor was killed by invaders. Now to layer a story on top of that is what our mythology is all about. Ultimately what's acceptable to the Brahmins is what is allowed as religion or Hinduism here. 

That has always been questioned here and that's exactly what this thread is about. 

P.S.: stop talking in a patronizing way, you are not exalted to talk about inner truths;
Manish Pandit Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula 
1. The paradigms and constructs which I mention are true: 
But perhaps it will take time for you to realise what I am saying is accurate.
Religion is an Abrahamic construct and the world is waking up to this fact on a daily basis.
Religion is not Dharma.
2. Which country of the world does not ban something? Saudi Arabia, United States, Canada, even Germany and Russia have banned something or the other.
The point I want to make is simply that the Indian system is far from perfect and is not immune to criticism.
3. To understand the story one has to read it first. I understand that you have not read it and am only pointing out that every Durga vigraha is only complete with Mahishasura.
Those tribals are free to believe that their ancestor was killed by an "outsider" but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.
Ask how many thousands of people experience "inner truths" (I know that its tiring for you to hear me say this word, but trust me I am not patronising you, I am simply talking facts here) by just a daily recitation of those 700 verses.

PS: I dont claim that I am exhalted at all... but thats your opinion and indeed your prerogative to voice what you want.
My intention is to soothe only... and so I will point out that the Jallikattu which you and I support and which is being banned by the judiciary is because of a concerted attack on Dharma by "educated idiots" and backed by the missionary nexus .
All of these customs are in the way of the 10:40 window of the Joshua project.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula 1) When you use it's ok? When I use, it's not ok? Instead of being stuck on semantics, focus on the content. 

2) Now why are you comparing with countries which follow Abrahamic religions? You say Indian system is not immune to criticism, but just lookat how you dismiss criticism as Western influenced! Practice what you preach first. 

3) Depicting their ancestor at the foot of Durga is supposed to make them feel part of the Dharmic belief system? That's a plain insult to their beliefs. When we get agitated when Hindu symbols are treated badly in the West, why can't we show the same concern to the sentiments of the tribals? 

Please give it a rest with the verses. This is the worst form of evangelism. You believe what you believe in. This debate is not about that, but the social context of how we apply different yardsticks to different people. 

I'm very much aware of the Joshua project, but can you tell why a Govt filled with Hindu torchebearers let people down when it comes to anything non Vedic?
Naveen Manikandan Periasamy Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula//You say Indian system is not immune to criticism, but just look at how you dismiss criticism as Western influenced!//
I guess we'll have to refresh our memories here. Just a few weeks ago, the same sort of allegations and aspersions were cast on PETA and their supporters - about them being a westernized group who are conspiring to destroy the native tradition of Jallikattu. Where did tolerance of criticism go then? Make no mistake - I am a supporter of Jallikattu. But, it is sheer hypocrisy when you apply different yardsticks to Dharmic belief systems.
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