From Jeyamohan's article
...
For the billions of Indians, their caste
is an important cultural aspect that determines their personal
identity. Irrespective of the position of their caste in the social
hierarchy, this identity forms part of their tradition and they are
proud of it. This makes them refuse to part with their caste identity.
They live and work together as a group of their caste.
In our country, caste and one’s
profession are entwined. Every caste has its own profession. By
functioning together as ethnic groups for ages, they have acquired
certain special skills and unique qualities. The group that has been
into wars for three thousand years acquired one set of skills and the
caste that has been involved in trade for generations acquired a
different set of qualities.
Lessons learnt through the experience of
the forefathers are nurtured within that caste through its social
arrangements, orthodox practices, beliefs and traditions. This
gradually cultivates the mindset to suit these arrangements and then
this attitude gets evolved into the collective characteristics of that
caste. This gets embedded in the language, festivals and the like of
that particular caste in the form of imagery. The child that is born
into such an environment grows naturally absorbing these attitudes in
its subconscious.
The individual personality of that child
may grow in different directions. A conservative would say that one can
think only within his caste and that there is no personality for an
individual. A fascist would make it a rule. However, to think that it
is possible to look at a man after completely detaching him from his
traditional identity would only be wishful thinking. The personality of
a man is determined by the dialectics between these two factors. ...
Kala Ramnath But what happens
if you don't want to be in a 'lower caste' profession - and all the
condescending attitudes that go with it, and aspire to to a different one
that's not your designated one? Is it possible to change castes?
Aparna Krishnan we will redefine
caste as we see right, and work towards that. Also, that is what all reformers
in this country have done - because caste cannot be wished away. That is what
Gandhi also did.
Kala Ramnath Yep. But its
such a fundamental thing to be 'born into' a category that cannot allow one to
realise one's fullest potential if one does not see much to celebrate about
being a leather worker or a scavenger. I imagine it can and has been reformed
but it must be painfully slow for those who live the negative sides of it
daily.
Aparna Krishnan Untouchability
is a crime. Beyond and outside of it, caste is basically communities with
shared bonds and practices . The Malas mock at the Naidus, and vice versa in
our village.
Piyush Manush We means who ...
we will redefine caste ... who will redefine it and who will agree to the
redefinition
Komakkambedu Himakiran
Anugula Caste is India. People with the poorest understanding of
society comment and deride it on the one side and the other end focuses on
projecting only their caste as the best without understanding the positioning
and purpose of the same.
When we say traditional knowledge it resides in the castes. How do we neglect caste and save the knowledge alone? Reform at best is left to the masses.
The sad part of the whole discourse is its impossible to talk about caste without being accused of being casteist or elitist.
When we say traditional knowledge it resides in the castes. How do we neglect caste and save the knowledge alone? Reform at best is left to the masses.
The sad part of the whole discourse is its impossible to talk about caste without being accused of being casteist or elitist.
Piyush Manush which knowledge
resides in caste ??
Piyush Manush why desist from
owning to being a casteist ..carry it with pride ... when u state that Caste is
India / India is caste
Komakkambedu Himakiran
Anugula Take farming for instance. Who knows it best? It's people
from farming communities. They're never consulted when govt draws programs for
agriculture. Now after messing it up for 50 years, now we are all seeking them
out to save our soil, food.
Komakkambedu Himakiran
Anugula We talk about local food and food miles now; it doesn't
really matter for traditional people as they never left their local food. This
is from the innate knowledge that we have. It's the knowledge base of our
castes and that I'm proud of. I just don't rub that pride in anyone's face.
Aparna Krishnan Piyush Manush, one of the main temples in our
panchayat has a Mala (SC) as the priest because is ancestor discovered the idol
in a dream. All castes, Balijas, Reddys, Naidus come and attend the festival
and take prasad. These nuances and spaces and interweaving are what need to be
seen and understood as much as the violence. then one would be able to correct.
Otherwise one can join the white man in abusing our community structure and our
gods and our practices blindly. And in our panchayat not one would 'give up' their
caste or their gods. They would demand respect, and land distrubution and much
else - but not abolition of caste and gods.
Piyush Manush I could only
seek condolences for my own stupidity .. thanks for the wonderful responses and
showing me the light ..forgive me for having disturbed such great minds ..
Aparna Krishnan Piyush Manush, is it too much to expect you to
take the other point of view without dripping with sarcasm ??
Komakkambedu Himakiran
Anugula I choose not to see it as sarcastic!
Then I'm at peace with that reply.
Then I'm at peace with that reply.
Lakshman Kumar
Lakshminarayana Aparna Krishnan -
Sorry, Aparna but you are telling about one exception, you had seen.... I'm so
happy and jealous about your panchayat.... But I don't think we can take
exceptions as examples ? Because when it comes for Majority (I'm not sure about
AP, but i had travelled across TN and south karnataka), there is a visible
venom spit in the name of caste....
Aparna Krishnan Maybe. But in my
case it took many years to see thro' my own conditionings and see the village
from a village viewpoint. The urban is distanced thro' many factors, including
his own colonial-medium education and many western theories including
marxism. To go beyond that and see, and thereby work out responses in a
rooted manner takes time and humility - both sadly rare in the
english-educated-urban-articulate paper writers.
Aparna Krishnan Also, my
understanding is that every civilization has a framework which cannot be simply
thrown out. It needs to be seen, understood, validated where needed, and
corrected where needed. Caste is one such. And also a pervasive simple
religiousness.
Lakshman Kumar
Lakshminarayana Definitely, I don't subscribe to the point that the Urban
elitists make on rural India and the western theories they put forth. On the
other hand, We also need to address the reforms in the framework, if we choose
to retain as quite a many practises which are followed, are obsolete, inhuman
and stupid. Having said that, I also have to say that discrimination based on
caste exists beyond Rurals. A scavenger in rural India is discriminated lesser
than urbans opposite to the claim of city Elites....
Aparna Krishnan there is much
that needs correction, and also much that needs uprooting maybe. But it has to
be done with an understanding of the praxis of the society. Which needs a deep
engagement.
Pattu Raj Jeyamohan and
Nanjil Nadan together are inspiring writers in Tamizh. One never tires reading
them.
Mohammad Chappalwala I agree that we
all need a 'caste' but we need to go to the roots and read it as tribe. no
hierarchy between tribes, geograhically separate, owners of land and resources
Aparna Krishnan absolutely.
Piyush Manush what chappalwala
sir why do we need a caste !!
Mohammad Chappalwala not caste, but
tribes
Suraj Kumar Hierarchies will
always exist in any given situation. The hunter is hierarchically above the
hunted, always. However, once the hunting is over, the hierarchy changes.
Mosquitoes may be above the hunter! As long as we recognize that such transient
hierarchies, each different in its balance, exist every moment, then its fine.
Piyush Manush Aparnaji i agree
that every tme u scorn on my faith it comes from your coming froma Brahmin
family ..where u have taken the burden of spirituality along with the swami's
and pandas & their fundas that u have come to so deeply revere... but
aparnaji get facts right ..start travelling outside dalitwada and chennai too
..visit conflict areas .. and i am sure u will drop your caste for once and
start looking at humanity in a different way ..
Aparna Krishnan Piyush, maybe we
all need to see different places with an open mind. I may discover other
perspective I agree. I think you may also discover that 1. caste is deeply part
of the warp and weft of this country and cannot be wished away 2. It has the
strength of community ties and bonding and spaces, and it is the ills it it
that need to be corrected.
Aparna Krishnan And my deepest respect
for the Bhagavad Geeta is very seperate from my sociological position on caste.
As for my 'brahminhood', I never was one ! A brahmin needs to earn his living
by asking for bhiksha daily, and has to surrender all his learning to society's
good. I have always been very very far from this ideal, and at best can claim
to be a shudra.
Piyush Manush going by that
then a sudra needs to clean up the streets and drains and cannot take up baniya
work nor become a works man ( what ever that is named) nor become a scholar
ain't it ..
Aparna Krishnan Piyush Manush, please read up first on the
caste system. A shurda works for his living. The farmers in our village are
shudras. In modern times the IT engineers are also shudras, because their
primary aim is to earn for themselves by giving some service (a far more
quesrionable service than the farmer's). Brahminhood is a very evolved state
where knowlege is comtributed to society, and so that pride in learning not run
riot, he is to beg for his daily meals. The brahmins may be frauds, brahminhood
as a concept is not.
Aparna Krishnan And people can
move across occupations were they so inclined. Or if that got fossilised that
needed correction.
Piyush Manush when everything
needs correction why hold on to it
Aparna Krishnan Piyush Manush ! Because as I have said
one hundred and sixty seven times, in my understanding it is one of the
foundation stones of this society and cannot be removed, As is religiousness.
These can be corrected, not discarded. And there is my own opinion that there
are also deep strengths in it, just as there are perversions which need
correction,.
Aparna Krishnan And what in your
opinion is free from getting distorted and needing correction ? The modern
democracy ? The judicial system ? The class system ? communisim ?
Surya Prakash Piyush Manush ji Simple Example : We Had
Different Variety of Traditional Rice and Milets Seeds which had lot of
Nutrition and Medicinal values , but after foreigners rule we lost our
Traditional seeds and Got poisoning waste and Useless IR RICE . But Today
People are Bringing Traditional seeds Back .Same way We need the Caste system
which is work sharing ,environment oriented , family bonded , spiritual etc
.And we should remove the useless & poisoning elements of caste system like
IR Rice .Aparna Krishnan Mam
Piyush Manush Aiyoo .. caste
system is environment oriented / spiritual / and fevicol bonding sorry family
is it ..
Shashi Enarth AParna, a lot of
your arguments hovers around what you see in your village. And much of it comes
from your desire to endorse their belief systems. SO when their systems
contradict your personal views (beef eating), you let it be under the refrain
that it is personal. Where it in sync with your views you come down quite
emphatically as a universal truth. I agree with Piyush, that for every imagined
virtue of caste (jati) system that you can extol, there are 5 times reason to
rip it apart. And you dont have to go far to see it in its most gory state.
Aparna Krishnan yes shashi, i
endorse the structures of those communities which tread lightly on earth, and
maintain a harmony forgotten to the urban. As strongly as I question the norms
of the over consuming urbanite. If their blood and gore is visible, that of the
urbans, many times over, stays invisible because of the vast distances they
have created between producer and consumer.
Aparna Krishnan my opinion on
meat is that it is ok in the ways in which the village rear and have it. the
industrial meat of cities is abhorrent. and why i refuse to criticise meat
eating oer se is that in modernity the havoc wrecked on animals by our
lifestyle is far far more than a meal of meat. Yes, i choose the right to stay
vegetarian personally.
Uma Shankari Why does the caste
system persist? This is an old question asked again and again. We all know that
individual castes as well as the caste practices have changed a lot through the
centuries, but identification with caste is yet to disappear. Will it disappear
at all? I can't say. One reason could be a universal need to feel a sense of
"us" vs. "them". In India caste provides that feel. This is
reinforced through rituals like in marriages arranged within castes. One way
the caste identification could be avoided is to vehemently refuse to acknowlege
it in public spheres, like dropping one's surnames from one's name, refusing to
answer questions on one's caste, etc.-which is what many of us do. Piyush
Manush. Shashi Enarth. Or to wear it proudly and defy all of one's caste practices.
Like Krishna Madiga- he is not a cobbler. But basically history can not be
wished away so easily; it is a baggage we have to carry, whether we like it or
not; we have to work around it, even when we protest against it.
Aparna Krishnan Uma, Naren saw
strength in the basic caste framework (and untouchability is a demonic and
seperate issue.) - as you and i also have
Uma Shankari But Aparna Krishnan I
still think we can defy it so much that it stops being important at all in our
lives, except as a piece of the past, a piece of history with which we don't
identify.
Aparna Krishnan you and i may
have left caste aside. but for a society i do feel that it gives a framework
where diversity can exists and be protected. of course, the hierarchy needs to
be questioned and toppled. But the jati framework had a logic.
(The whole article)
https://gandhinow.wordpress.com/tag/brahmam/
Of
late, nothing else in my website is read with so much excitement as the
articles on Gandhi. Letters are pouring in and I am writing this as
one long reply to all of them.
As you have asked, ‘Was a Baniya’s
attitude apparent in Gandhi’s actions?’ Yes indeed, his approach was
that of a Baniya. The answer to the second question is also the same.
Who, other than an immensely successful senior Baniya, could be a better
guide in your business?
I would not acknowledge those who abuse
Gandhi as a Baniya, as most of them are casteists. They cannot shed
their caste identity and the communalist view even slightly. They
believe that caste identity is inseparable and hence, whenever someone
has to be discredited or abused, they start with targeting his/her caste
identity. Such people do not even have the decency to qualify to take
part in any debate about Gandhi.
If you are interested in making an honest
assessment, we may ponder over certain facts. What are the positive and
negative effects of one’s caste on his/her personality? Does the caste
system contribute anything to the society? What is the background of
Baniya tradition in Indian history?
A child is engulfed by its caste, the
moment it is born. There is no place in this debate for the age old
rhetoric that describes caste as a system thrust upon a group of people
by another group just as a tool for suppression. It has no backing of
sociological research. In the Indian society, caste system evolved from
its early tribal identity and with the emergence of feudalism, it took
the shape of hierarchical power structure.
For the billions of Indians, their caste
is an important cultural aspect that determines their personal
identity. Irrespective of the position of their caste in the social
hierarchy, this identity forms part of their tradition and they are
proud of it. This makes them refuse to part with their caste identity.
They live and work together as a group of their caste.
In our country, caste and one’s
profession are entwined. Every caste has its own profession. By
functioning together as ethnic groups for ages, they have acquired
certain special skills and unique qualities. The group that has been
into wars for three thousand years acquired one set of skills and the
caste that has been involved in trade for generations acquired a
different set of qualities.
Lessons learnt through the experience of
the forefathers are nurtured within that caste through its social
arrangements, orthodox practices, beliefs and traditions. This
gradually cultivates the mindset to suit these arrangements and then
this attitude gets evolved into the collective characteristics of that
caste. This gets embedded in the language, festivals and the like of
that particular caste in the form of imagery. The child that is born
into such an environment grows naturally absorbing these attitudes in
its subconscious.
The individual personality of that child
may grow in different directions. A conservative would say that one can
think only within his caste and that there is no personality for an
individual. A fascist would make it a rule. However, to think that it
is possible to look at a man after completely detaching him from his
traditional identity would only be wishful thinking. The personality of
a man is determined by the dialectics between these two factors.
For example, I am a Nair, a clan of
soldiers and landlords. Throughout my life, I have been trying to come
out of the caste identity. Caste has no role in my personal or social
life. Four hundred years ago, my caste had entered into the folds of
classical arts and literature and reached the cultural heights of a
feudalistic tradition. A hundred years ago, the Missionaries had
introduced modern education to my caste.
Nairs are not a strong ethnic group
anymore. Most of the Nair families have sons-in-law, daughters-in-law
and grandchildren of various castes as a result of inter-caste
marriages. Of late, marriages between the white and yellow clans are
solemnized. To Nairs, the status that comes through money is the
yardstick but still, their unique traits continue to exist.
The ‘caste attitude’ is a reality and it
need not be looked upon from an entirely negative perspective. It can
be said that skills acquired over centuries become traditional nature.
Certainly, some of these attitudes are desirable and some are not. No
single caste can take credit for all virtues nor can it be held
responsible for all vices. This has made a positive impact on many
professions in India, especially that of smiths and sculptors.
But I think there is no value today for
many of the qualities traditionally acquired by the warring castes, like
mine. Only the useful intuitions that are profession-related have some
significance. I think, many attitudes acquired by the Baniya community
over centuries might have worked on Gandhi in the form of beliefs,
practices and intuitions.
Not just in India, but throughout the
world, we can see the best among traders have come predominantly from
drought-prone areas and deserts. This may be due to the fact that the
attitudes acquired by them to survive such harsh conditions have made
them successful in trade. This includes attitudes like being thrift,
enduring patience, the will to win and functioning as strong close-knit
groups.
From time immemorial our best traders
have come from Rajasthan and Gujarat. Literature shows us that traders
existed in Dwarka from ancient times. Their attitudes were shaped by
their trade.
Even to this day, Jainism has a firm
stronghold in these areas when compared to the other States. In India,
Jainism evolved 2500 years ago and its fundamental vision evolved from lokayata
[atheistic and materialistic] tradition that already existed. So, in
essence, Jainism is quite against the orthodoxy which was the mainstream
Indian spiritual tradition.
We can briefly sum it up like this: the wisdom of the Vedas,
which is the mainstream of Hindu tradition, believes that this universe
possesses an unknown central objective or a central plan or a force.
It argues that this centre is the only Truth and all that we see are
different illusions of the same. It defines the essence of the Universe
as the Brahmam. All that we see are various forms of that Brahmam.
The Vedic wisdom’s idea of liberation
emerged from this. It says that while we indulge in worldly activities,
we also need to be aware that everything is an illusion. This
detachment would help one perform one’s task in the best possible
manner. In the end, when this illusion completely disappears and when
one identifies the self with the essential truth, it becomes liberation –
the salvation that the Vedic wisdom refers to.
There were many ancient visions that
opposed this central idea. Jainism emerged by absorbing the essence of
these various perspectives, formulating an extensive philosophical
base. Its view of the world is called Sarvaasthivaatham. It
means all that we perceive in this universe are true and nothing is
illusory or falsehood. So, to search for the essence of this world one
need not go outside the world.
As an extension to this, the Jains formed the idea of Sarvaathmavaatham.
Everything in the Universe, be it a living being or an inanimate
object, has a soul. To Jains, soul means the essence of thought. A
stone remains a stone because of its soul. That is to say, we are one
of the billions of souls in this universe, like the dog, the plant, the
bacterium, the mountain and the pebble and nothing beyond that.
From this, the Jains arrived at the fundamental vision called Anekaanthavatham.
Its essence is that the truth man perceives, whether at the simpler
level or higher level, will always be in a plural form. Never will a
man’s mind come across the absolute universal truth. Man is so small
and the truth is so magnificent.
There will always be many sides and
angles to the same truth. Everything is true; at the same time,
everything is false. Complete truth can be realized by us only as a
whole of hundreds of billions of truths. To explain this with a simile
the Jains told the story of five blind men and the elephant.
Gandhi was fascinated by this pluralism.
“Plurality of truth is an attractive idea to me. It is with this
theory that I understand a Muslim or a Christian through his own
perception. Initially I had lost my patience, because of the ignorance
of my opponents. Now, I am able to love them, because, now, I can
perceive myself from their angle. My pluralism emerged from the twin
principle of truth and non-violence”, said Gandhi.
Chiyathvaatham, the next primary
principle of the Jains, emerged as an extension of this. No knowledge
that we gain about our environment is complete. This is close to
skepticism of the ancient Greeks and the modern physical theory that
‘Nothing is absolute and everything is relative’.
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