FB Discussions - Plastic Surgery in Ayurveda.

November 3, 2014 at 1:38pm 

The PM has made some comment on plastic surgery having been done on Ganesha. Much ridicule has been poured on this for his lack of scientific thinking.

I have serious objections both to his statements, and to the objections made by others - and my own reasons are different.

To the PM
1. Ganesha and the stories are of religious significance to people. The work was of god's, as they say. To reduce it to plastic surgery is to mock at people and their gods. 

To the Critics

2. Plastic surgery has existed in ancient India - with procedures clearly documented in Charaka Samhita and Sushruta Samhita - our foundation texts even for present day Ayurveda practice. The glories of our ancient past does not interest me very much, as it is the present that I am worrying about. But sometimes the past does establish the present.  


To the PM and his Critics

3. Why should the myths or ancient science need to be couched in the language of modern science except that is seen has the most credible of all systems. That the religion of modern science is crowned as the most authentic of all religions is problematic.

At the alter of modern science is sacrificed all that does not measure upto its process of 'scientific validation'. That includes religion, the mantrams of my village people, existances and processes that place value on beleifs that do not fit into 'modern science'.  

Vipin Sharma Science is nothing but a rediscovery of already present facts, who knew about electricity before it was invented, but positive and negative charges and conductors of electricity were always present similarly who knew about uses of crude oil, it was only after the invention of automobile engines that the use of crude oil as petroleum and gas was invented do we mean to say that crude oil never existed. Science is a re-discovery of facts that are uncovered due to man's thinking and enterprise. Stories of myth are more in the nature of metaphysics rather than physics, these stories depict mythical deities as energies rather than physical forms, metaphysics and study of various energies is a scientific branch in itself that is yet to be explored fully. But then who knew about mobile phones and internet just 50 years ago, what to talk about thousands of years in the past, I think science has to come a full circle to truly understand the metaphysical truths about energies and the nature of matter itself as quantum physics and string theories are striving to prove that matter can indeed be broken down into nothingness.

Piyush Manush makes a lot of sense!!

Aparna Krishnan Piyush, was expecting some brickbats from your end !

Piyush Manush aiyoo . .. why this impression amma !

 

Gokul Kenath It may not be exactly a great thing to directly relate puranas to scientific discoveries even though it certainly presents an idea. But, it is no way means that India lacks scientific heritage. As much as India is famous for its philosophical and cultural heritage, it also has a great deal of scientific heritage even though most of the moderners are completely unaware of it.

Gokul Kenath When you have time, please watch this video by Dr N Gopalakrishnan on India's scientific heritage. Things would be more clear on this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yIoBsYNjHA

 

Aparna Krishnan to 'scienticize' religion is a very 'modern' approach - because in modernity science is the most sacred. 

Modi also clearly subscribes to this modern view. My village people keep their religion separate and holy and in its place, and their secular studies are in their place.

Gokul Kenath There are a few relations among a few practices, rituals and a few scientific principles. Then again, it has to be analyzed at such individual practices level, not a generalization at the religion level :) There is lies the difference.

Aparna Krishnan meaning ?

Gokul Kenath Meaning, a religion is a collection of millions of such practices and ideas. Some will be scientific, some will be completely non scientific. Very dangerous to generalize everything into one label.

Aparna Krishnan yes. science has a limited space. faith has a limited space, tradition another limited space - to make science the God (as is being done today) is a problem. And is most superstitious !

Gokul Kenath Learning E=MC squared will give me a scientific information; but, it is not enough to make my mind calm; it is not enough to give me that inner peace. That is where science alone will not be enough for a human. Otherwise, we all can recite Pythagoras theorem and Einstein's principles every morning instead of Vishnu Sahasranamam or Gayathri Manthram ;)

For peace of mind and such things, you need to have something else than just the material science :)

Aparna Krishnan Not just peace of mind ... even at a secular level there are many many systems and knowleges. science is only one of them. my village people treat with herbs, with mantrams, with antrams ... and though my 'scientific' mind looks with interest at the herbs, and dismisses the others ... i realize the sense of superiority, and the arrogance in my dismissive attitude. and i see it in others of my class and clan also.

Gokul Kenath The important point is to identify what comes under the scope of science and what comes under the scope of faith and not to confuse or interfere one with the other.

It is like the eyes and the nose. Eyes are the pramanam for sight; what eyes see, the nose cannot confirm nor deny. Similarly, the nose alone are the pramanam for smell; what nose smells the eyes cannot confirm nor deny.

This needs to be remembered. It is a very wrong practice to try to approve or disprove scientific findings by using the ideas of faith and equally wrong to try to interpret the rights and wrongs of matters related to faith using the scientific principles.

Aparna Krishnan this worship of science and scientific spirit to the exclusion of all else is so superstitious.

Aparna Krishnan well, speaking of 'ancient science', in ayurveda i see that the last word has been said in the Brihad Trayi - Charaka Samhita, Sushruta Samhita and Ashtanga Hrudaya. Today as we have addressed auto immune conditions like SLE, incurable cases like haemophilia, and many other intractable conditions, we have proceeded on these texts alone (and others like Sarangadhara, Madhava Nidhana ... all from ancient to medeival times). this is all i have seen closely - and thereby can imagine the wealth of ancient sciences.

Aparna Krishnan Allopathy seems a nascent empirical science before Ayurveda, when the latter is seen at depth - in theory, and in the hands of a competent practitioner.

The mindlessness everywhere.

The PM has said something about plastic surgery and Ganesha. And all over I am seeing reactions, mocking the scriptures, mocking the Mahabharatha. Mocking the fact that plastic surgery has existed in India.

All I know is that reconstruction of the nose and the ear are clearly described in Charaka Samhita and Sushruta Samhita. These were in vogue. The other thing I know is that the Mahabharatha is revered deeply in the real India in villages ... and the best lessons from it are incorporated in day to day living - lessons of generosity quoting Karna, lessons of fortitude saying that 'even the gods underwent the viccicitudes of life', lessons of karma 'if we violate dharmam, then rains will fail' ...

The PM has obviously used this as an analogy. In this day and age no one beleives that an elephants head can be grafted on a human being.

If we are going to reject all that the other says - even when the essense what they say is valid - more fools us.

(There is this other post being gleefully circulated about how to oppose the mindless moral policeing, public kissing is undertaken. I have no comments. I only wonder how Eashwaramma and Varalu will react to this. To me they are the ones who represent the sense and sensibility of India.)

15Rama Subramanian, Uday Shankar and 13 others

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• Gangadharan Kumar

  Intellectual laziness, not bothering to understand context (I'm not talking about the speech) etc. etc.

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• Arvind Jha

  Big difference in having an idea and ability to execute. If we really had stem cell tech why only limited to Ganesha ? Should have been used widely.

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Absolutely Gangadharan. To take on an issue, one needs rigour and depth. Not reactionism. Otherwise one simply looks like a fool, and the person we are trying to debate with, emerges validated.

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Arvind Jha, Here, to mindlessly and superficially question and reject Ayurveda (yes, that plastic surgery does exist in the original Sanskrit text I will attest), is intellectual immaturity. That the practice existed till two centuries back is also available in archival studies of Dharampal. There is too much of superficial and non-rigourous response in these times.

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  And there are many things which need to be factored into a thoughtful response. Science, the tradition and culture of a community, the priorities ... kneejerk reactions only damage (the knee, and also the point that we are trying to make.)

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  And when there is deep faith of the people in Ganesha, and the Ganesha story - i see no reason to mock at it, or to talk them out of that.

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Reconstruction of nose is plastic surgery. Transplanting an entire head is an altogether different kind of plastic surgery. No one is questioning principles of ayurveda. What one is talking about is the stupidity of the PM to talk purely off his hat.

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  ..... and rural populations just by virtue of being rural populations do not automatically become pure pious and pretty......

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Rajeev, the PM has obviously used it figuratively. No one in this day believes that an elephants head can be placed on a human. I am responding to the knee jerk responses questioning entire Mahabharatas. That will not work because the ordinary people will (rightly) look at us as fools then.

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  I have nowhere said the rural people are beautiful because they live in rural settings ! I have simply pointed out a deeper generosity that I have clearly observed in the village community with whom I have spent long and close years. That could come out of their community sense and commitment, out of a deeper faith, out a a non monetized system - and maybe all these.

  

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• Sampatt Shetty

  Too many cooks certainly spoil.... In the same manner our western educating pattern has produced mass of experts, capable of commenting on anything without any depth nor research, thus we have a floating society of experts dishing out disastrous recipes. The decdoing of ancient texts isn't an easy attempt, we, the English bred Hindu minds should kindly take note. Shastras unravelled discipline's that we haven't encountered in our lives, Mantras have a unique and accurate impact on proper usage, Tantras are too deep and fascinating (Saw some very in-depth revelations from a Kerala expert, trained in Gurukulaam education) Many such amazing and problem solving methods relevant and simple are brushed aside for creating a market from OTC (Over The Counter) to Super Speciality professionals, who do not have a firm grip over their expertise, over and above commercial interest (this means the mass behavior in solving our medical, educational, legal, social and community problems).

  Our villages in India hold many such treasures and unknown remedies. The above words are experiences and have nothing to do with mocking any particular system.

  

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• Naveen Manikandan Periasamy

  The epitome of all disgraceful responses came from our Orangutan of Timenow Tv - Arnab Goswami who was jumping up and down synchronously along with the feminist Bindhi brigade (NCW) who openly advocate legalization of prostitution, mini-skirts, homosexuality, banning laws on adultery, etc. The reason is tolerant Hindus are soft targets. Will anyone in the bindhi brigade dare to suggest muslim women to shed their Burqas and wear mini-skirts instead..? They should have learnt their lesson from the Kushboo incident. We do not have long ears !

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  The ordinary Indians sensibly go on with their lives, and ignore irrelevencies. My vilage people will simply not respond to Arnab or proponents of a public kissing programme (unless it was brought into their village, and then they would set the village dogs on them !). There is a large English educated community that is alienated from its roots, and is also totally non-rigourous to its approach to issues. Scholarship, and deep understanding are passe in these google times. Best ignored maybe - as the vilage people do.

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Why can't Mahabharatas be questioned? Single or all versions for that matter? Just because 'ordinary' people will look at us fools?

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Does NCW advocate legalisation of prostitution? Can you send me a link of some news item, or a note etc., where I will be able to read this for myself Naveen ji?

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Please question the Mahabharatha. A society thrives only on deep questionings and introspections. The people also have their own traditions of multiple and subversive retellings. I am referring to a superficial and disdainful rejection of everything traditional 'because RSS owned it up', or 'because modern science does not validate it'. I do not bow to the gods of modern I consider them extremely fallible.

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  ..... 'Deep knowledge' never existed for the vast swathes of our people. Our great caste system was the biggest inhibitor. Google is helping things getting a bit deeper at least to some extent. At least here no one can come and tell me what to learn and what not to. It's up to me how far I will go in my quest for knowledge. At the choice is there ....

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• Aparna Krishnan

  I think these questions need a deeper engagement than a FB debate can permit. The vast and detailed knowlege of the epics with the poorest and most illiterate communities - far vaster than mine after readings of Munshi and Rajagopalachari and other English versions. the various aspects of the caste system - some highly empowering. These need to be lived in a community and seen over years.

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  What us superficial and how is it going to be decided when superficial becomes 'in depth'? Understanding as a science is not ancient or modern. The quest for understanding our surroundings has been there since people existed its a continuum.....

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Caste system can never be glorified and never be empowering. At least never from the point of view of the so called lower castes.....

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• Aparna Krishnan

  this is an older comment I had made, " When i moved to the village, i thought it was 'so wrong' that Naidus lived in a community, dalits in another hamlet, irulas in the SC hamlet and so on. I decided that the 'harijan hamlet' was 'outide' the main village, and that this was 'casteism'.

  So we moved into the harijan hamlet, and made the small hut there our home. The village became home, and life flowed in its beauty. Over many years i realized that no one is 'outisde' ... every community wishes to stay with their people, and they have their own customs and structures ... and the harijans do not wish to stay next door to naidus, nor the other way around.

  I dicovered that 'caste the villian', is a very limited viewpoint ... and actually no caste feels inferior. Each feels very superior. The dalits make fun of the naidus and their mannerisms, and the other way around.

  We only need to address the shattered economies ... their society they are well capable to handling without our bumbling efforts, often rooted in wrong notions."

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  http://paalaguttapalle.blogspot.in/.../is-caste-issue.html

  

  PAALAGUTTAPALLE.BLOGSPOT.COM

  Paalaguttapalle (Dalitwada) - A Village: Is caste an issue ?

  Paalaguttapalle (Dalitwada) - A Village: Is caste an issue ?

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• Naveen Manikandan Periasamy

  Rajeev R. Singh

   http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../artic.../44973994.cms

  

  TIMESOFINDIA.INDIATIMES.COM

  Proposal to legalize prostitution to be placed before SC panel: NCW - The Times of India

  Proposal to legalize prostitution to be placed before SC panel: NCW - The Times of India

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  So after all the years you came out convinced that caste is not villain after all? So caste can be retained if economies are shattered? But why did economies go bad in the first place all over India and mainly for Dalits? (Harijan is an illegal terminology). Why should Dalits not own land anywhere in India? They making fun of upper castes is not the point at all. It's not or 'feeling superior' a measure of empowerment. Also a dalit may not want to stay next to an upper caste not due to empowerment but due to other reasons. Also, that's the 'beauty' of caste.

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Please read what I have said - i am saying that untouchability is a crime. Every affirmative and punitive action needs to be taken. But the 'caste system' is vaster than this degraded perversion of untouchability. And that 'caste system' has much to be said for it. In terms of a deep sense of community, support, spaces for different cultures under an overarching commonality ...

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  But this needs a nuanced, detailed discussion. We need a speratspace for it - not FB two liners. I am willing to engage in a different space from this. Here i will beg off the caste discussion.

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  How did you feel I have not read what you wrote? If you feel upset pls let me know and I will go away...

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Ok saw your later response now....

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Naveen ji I am not responding to your link here pls come on my wall ...

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• Naveen Manikandan Periasamy

  @Rajeev R. Singh I have only duly produced the proof that you asked for. If you question the veracity of the news, feel free to dig in deeper. Casteism is a poison which has been injected in our society by the invader. The number of castes multiplied after the British took census and segregated people based on their profession in accordance with their divide and rule policy. Not even non-Hindus were spared from this vile deceit. They even built mosques in Kanpur and Erode to promote tannery industry supplies luxury seats and jackets for the westerners to this day while polluting our rivers . A vast chunk of our history has been kept under the closet by vested interests. The original Varna system formulated by the Rishis was a fair and just one. It is a means of dividing Knowledge, Power, Money and Land - The four wheels of society to four Varnas - The Bhrahmanas, Khsatriyas, Vaishyas and Sudhras so that no one group usurps control and oppresses the other. There is deep wisdom in this. Unlike today, the Bhramanas were mendicants who did not own anything and had to beg for their food. Wars and resulting famines has produced many changes in society which cannot be understood unless history is studied carefully. Our ancestors are not ones who deserved to be mocked by this generation.

  

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• Rajeev R. Singh

  Naveen ji are you based in India? Also I have seen your proof and started a thread on that on my wall. I am not interested in hijacking a discussion on someone else's wall hence I am asking you to come there ...

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• Naveen Manikandan Periasamy

  @Rajeev R. Singh I am not able to see the thread in your wall.

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• Naveen Manikandan Periasamy

  @Rajeev R. Singh Let me make this clear before I commit to any discussion on this matter. If you want to discuss or argue for the legality or morality behind NCW's recommendation to legalize prostitution, then I am not in for it. Answers for certain moral questions are a given in our society and we would need to needlessly divulge into philosophy and dialectic to establish the truth in such matters. If the discussion that you like to have is not of this nature, then I have no problem in indulging.

  

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• Nityanand Jayaraman

  One can reject Modi's claim that Karna represents proof of genetic engineering, and still be inspired by the generosity and valour of the character called Karna. I find it mindless when people who do the reverse of the wise things said in scriptures of any religion resort to quoting scriptures. Like when Narendra Modi forgot to attend the New York climate meeting, but told the UN General Assembly that India has a hoary tradition of respecting nature, and that climate change can be tackled by changing personal habits, and a combination of yoga and pranayama. All this talk about our respect for nature is part of our romantic past. Those who still practise respect are called savages and are forced to become civilised. Meanwhile the civilised see waterbodies as places to defecate in, urinate in and construct engineering colleges and bus stands. Our culture in the past was a result of the circumstances then. To move forward, we need to create a new culture based on the pathetic circumstances now. Religion today is so devoid of spirituality. The Festival of Our Lady of Health in the church to Velankanni in Besant Nagar spreads ill-health, plastic, noise and filth all round. All our religious places -- Sabari Malai, Velankanni, Nagoor dargah -- are cesspools. If god really existed as a being in these shrines, he/she/it would have run away at the first sight of the pilgrims. I think I'm ready to live in a world without religion.

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Yes, here is much sham in the name of religiousness all around - which is one reason why some have become irreligious.

  Another reason is that modern education celebrates the gods of modern science, and rejects all that cannot be 'scientificall yproved'. that included religion.

  The less bandwidth wasted on the doublespeak of the PM the better. And on those rich who visit temples, and contribute their plastics there and return. That sham is known.

  But it was in another phase of life when I moved to a village and over years discovered how much the lives there are based on a certian deep religiousness that draws deeply on the essence of what is communicated through the stories of epics. The generosity of Karna as you put it, leaving hair splitting aside for 'scholars'. And how that religiousness is what is the foundation of their day to day life - literally every third sentence refers to dharmam in my village. And then i realized that though we the educated may be able to live without religion (and maybe we are so alienated from our traditions through our very schooling, that that is our fate), India (as in her villages and ordinary people) will only exist in the framework of religion. And so that religion needs to be drawn on, corrected when it gets distorted ... but it cannot be dismissed. Not in this coutry whose very breath is the Mahabharata and other such stories. If we reject it - its course will be dictated completely by those who are appropriating it today ...

  

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• Nityanand Jayaraman

  Aparna Krishnan

   I agree with your statement about the deep and meaningful spiritual lives of many in our country when it comes to dealing with one another and with nature. Yes. That exists, and we should be thankful for that. I'd phrase your sentence about correcting religion when it gets distorted a bit differently, though. I think that it is spirituality that we're talking about. Religion, I feel, may already be a distortion of spirituality -- perhaps a pragmatic distortion borne out of a perceived need for a short-cut to spirituality. Religion is prone to corruption and distortion. Anyway, hair-splitting aside, I am quite sure that you and I are not likely to be very different in what we feel about this subject.

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  Nity, I nowadays refuse to seperate the terms 'religiousness' and 'spirituality', because ordinary people do not. In the village the dharmam (which defines a very valid code of ethics), and their Gods (from Gangamma and Yerpachchamma and Vinayaka and Tirupathi Balaji), and the vast and detailed stories from the epics that they exchange into the nights on the mats laid outside the huts, all form one complete and integrated whole. The religion versus spirituality debate seems to be artificial - and in respect to them and their religiosity I have learnt to only use the term religion. And to defend it from the corruption that it is subjected to, as I see it, by the Hindutva. Yes, I think you and i are on the same side of the fence - and the terms and words cause confusions and divisions.

  

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• Rama Subramanian

  whew! just catching up with all that is happening, i have been away in rural parts...plastic surgery and ganesha?! i am not sure where that comes from. but, yes there are references to plastic surgery that was performed by the traditional potters (kumhars) community as recent as couple of hundred years ago, Dharampal quotes british archival documents of the royal medical team that came to validate this as well (Indian Science & Technology in the 18th Century). question is not about 'we had all of this', which i find doesn't help beyond an academic interest. i find it important to understand how and why we lost this? why did the kumhars stop doing plastic surgery? how did the cotton producers (whose output textile was found to be better by a factor of 10-100 in almost 100 different parameters when compared to that of manchester made ones, again by another british archival document) and weavers lose their craft? why did't an independent nation do anything about it? how come a nation that managed more than 20 tonnes of paddy per hectare accept a science and technology that can't produce more than 8 tonnes as supposedly 'most advanced chemical farming'?

  it is irrelevant to romanticize this knowledge of history if we don't also acknowledge the way it was lost, what happened to those people (often these are relegated today as the 'most backward' or 'isolated' communities) who practiced them? etc., i know of publications that proudly proclaim plastic surgery, cloning, stealth technology, and all future technology, destructive or otherwise, that the modern science is yet to discover also being part of the indian knowledge system...that maybe or maynot be. it is a mute point for the future if you have more volumes of libraries and no one with hands and legs and working knowledge of any of these. the colonials systematically destroyed these skills and its practitioners, we have perpetuated these further; we have done so by fortifying prevailing social structured with their knowledge inequities, by relegating the skilled practitioners' knowledge as being secondary to the modern (western) knowledge unless eventually it is presented by an alien scholar in engiish language or market value elsewhere picksup for it (like ayurveda and yoga) and by continuing the colonial habits of paying lip service to these knowledges and continuing with their destruction with the same policies and rules being sustained often. i see such statements coming from the new rulers no better. unfortunately like you point out, those who oppose these are largely from the 'scholar' and 'academic' domain and in the process push the debate to its extremities and reduce it to 'you are with us or you are with them' kind of bi-polar debate not realizing that there is a vast population that has managed its life somewhere in between and they are doing equal disservice to the faith and belief of this population and render all of indian tradition and its legacy an exclusive property of the rightwing politicos by their academic opposition. the arguments need to be pinned down to the reality of the status today....for instance, if the PM states that we had plastic surgery of ganesha, the question that comes to my mind is 'sure, but, will your government change the policy for the kumhars with plastic surgery skills to be recognized by your medical department and insurance companies?' that is relevant in my view!

  

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• Aparna Krishnan

  No. This government and the previous government are all completely sold out to modernity and development on the fast track, squelching all thaose who come in its path. This government more than the previous ! The Hindutva government will pay some lip service to glorious tradition, and divert some discussions. That is all.

  

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