Sunday, 25 December 2016

Sanskrit and learnings and politics

Knee jerking all the time. Sanskrit is introduced, and all hell is let loose as it is a 'brahminical language'. I wish people put the country first, and the good of the people, over their pet ideologies.

Whether Sanskrit is brahminical or not is an academic point, and for academics to worry about. Ayurveda can be practised only if the vaid knows sanskrit to study the texts in its original power. Right now, as I write this, I see on my shelf the three volumes of Ashtanga Hrudaya, and the three volumes of Charaka Sanhita. In Sanskrit. We all read the original texts alone in the clinic, and what has been acheived over years of treatments is little short of miraculous. Ayurveda is the heritage of this country, and our own village has also benefitted vastly from it. I would wish it for all villages. I for one am more interested in restoring to this land its inheritence of health (and much more) rather than dealing in academic debates about which language is SC and which is BC and which is FC.

I only know ayurveda, but there is vrkshayurveda, there are treatises on hydrology - and to tap all this, we need sanskrit. So we certianly need it at least as an optional subject. And if English can be 'forced' on an Indian people, with all the sick classism and snobbery it brings in its wake, some Indian languages, and Sanskrit also may, as far as I am concerned.

Prakash Thangavel Akka there are lots of texts about sidha vaidya in tamil and it is being lost because sidha courses are infiltrated with western medicine. 50% of sidha syllabus is alloptahy and recently sidha council has outlawed original practitioners of sidha and naatu vaithiyam. Only solution is to kick out english and get a consensus on language for communication rather than a "national" language. Incidentally, sidha and ayurveda are closely related, eventhough minor differences are there because of the geography
Aparna Krishnan Sidhdha and Ayurveda are based on the same principles. Kick out English. And kick our the Educated Ignorants stalking every policy body and institution and NGO of this land.
Aparna Krishnan No one who has not spent time with the poor, sharing stakes - and not as an elite NGO head - should be allowed to have any say on any policy.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Sanskrit doesn't feed the masses as the only jobs that need it are historically RESERVED without any MERIT!
Aparna Krishnan Ayurveda depends on an understanding of Sanskrit. And the health it confers is not something I am prepared to lose for the country. And for the poor. And vaidyas are not all 'reserved brahmins' - far from it.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula I'm not talking about Ayurveda!
Aparna Krishnan Yes I know. But Sanskrit feeds into that as much as into the study of the vedas.
Aparna Krishnan I for one will not quietly allow the end of Ayurveda because Sanskrit is 'brahminical' !
Aparna Krishnan Maybe opposing Sanskrit has a token value - and yet I would plead for a balanced response. Ideology comes next to real gains for the people. The poor people. Ayurveda can restore health to them in a way allopathy cannot.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Stomach before mind;

I learn Sanskrit; how many jobs are out there to feed me with that knowledge?
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Read my previous statement in HISTORICALLY and RESERVED.

It's a burden to educate a child for the family and cost to society as it is. Rather they learn Mother tongue and English than Hindi or Sanskrit.

We talk from privilege.
Aparna Krishnan I am only questioning the bashing of Sanskrit. It is a case of cutting one's nose to spite one's face. Beyond that, of course bread winning leanings come first, and also this is optional for those who wish to pursue ayurveda, or any other related subject.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, mother tongue comes first. English also, despite my earnest wish that it dies in this country and levels the playing field for all children. After that only Sanskrit - sure.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Sanskrit is bashed as it's representative of one group of people who historically denied it to others. As simple as that; post India formation, it and its anointed heir Hindi have been raised to an exalted status with the money of people of other linguistic background. So both are hated, rightfully so.

It's not about the language at all; this is a social oppression that's being resisted.

English will never go away as the idiots in the north will replace it with Hindi. Without English I can't survive in this world. If the intention is to go native, then we need a minimum of 30 languages to start with, given equal status.
Aparna Krishnan Draw from each language the richness you can. Sanskrit certianly has ayurveda to offer. Otherwise it becomes just reactiveness and throwing the baby and bathwater out. Yes, English is here to stay. More's the pity - because that is the essntial edge that our children will have over the local language speaking children in the villaged which will vault them. Maybe 30 lanuages can all flower - I still have not decided that is impossible ! Yes, hindi dominance is rejected !
Kathir Krishnamurthi ·
Manu wanted lead poured into the ears of folks who listened to Sanskrit.. We already have Siddha in Tamil..and even degrees offered in siddha medicine. Thirumular's work in Tamil and Pathajali's work in Skt are available.

Sanskrit has been always a language used to assert hegemony over others. It was never a language of any common folk. Many Indian languages like Pali, Tamil and Prakrit have as much or more to offer..
Aparna Krishnan English is today the language of the elite and which browbeats every other oppressed community into submission. Can we get real instead of ranting about the past hegemonies and Manu. Manu is long dead and gone, and McCauly is the new Manu. Mr. Kathir. Please plan on handling the modern 'language of oppression', and tell me how you would plan giving up your own inherited advantages here.
Kathir Krishnamurthi 
I am bilingual. Learning English has opened up India to the world. தமிழ் connects me to the past. I try my best to bring in Tamil what I learned by my exposure to English.
Aparna Krishnan I said that beating Sanskrit is neither here nor there. English is the modern upper caste hegemonic language. Please answer that point.
Kathir Krishnamurthi 
Sanskrit is replaced by Hindi and English for Tamils,.. All my aunts (3..) sign with just finger prints. They speak Tamil, sing lullaby to oppaari in Tamil. spread around Kongu area of Tamil Nadu. I would not encourage anybody to use English or Hindi to dominate them or any villager. You could master Sanskrit and consider it as a heritage language..I am happy for you. But please give us the right to choose Tamil, neither Hindi nor Sanskrit..
Aparna Krishnan Please address my point. Today's language of class superiority is English, and not Sanskrit. How will you address that.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan teach it to everyone. It becomes a language of the masses
Aparna Krishnan Impossible. Even basic Telugu is hardly taught in village schools. It is like saying 'make all the poor people rich' !
Aparna Krishnan Therefor important for the Elite to reduce their English hegemony and move to Tamil, Telugu ...
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan now you see why we don't want Sanskrit. English and Sanskrit are both the same, but English feeds us
Aparna Krishnan Sanskrit is a specific language for those who wish to learn ayurveda etc. My petition is simply that we stop bashing it because a. there is much inherited knowlege there that is everyone's right b. the real language of oppression today is english and not sanskrit anymore.
Aparna Krishnan Yes, English feeds, and more's the pity. Rueing its essential classism, I also continue to teach all my children in the village that English.
Aparna Krishnan I wish telugu could claim the centrality English does today. that will redeem my children like nothing else will.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Yes, we won't let go of English; we have to promote our languages at the same time. And with our time, money, resources, both the people as well as State govts can't and shouldn't think beyond.

Where does Sanskrit feature here?
Kathir Krishnamurthi ·
It can be a heritage language for specially interested students. Aparna Krishnan does not feel the hegemony of Sanskrit_vads in temples that disallow Tamil worship. If Tamil is known for one, apart from having classical Sangam literature, it is Bhakthi literature......English separates rural and urban, tribal and 'educated'..sometimes the rich and the poor. .But Sanskrit even pushes out educated and imposes the old feudal order. You may know the struggle with Dikshitars (later arrivals in Tamil country) who hid the Tamil hyms in Chidambaram and were ordered by Rajaraja himself to bring out Thirumurais...Tamil is the last Dravidian fort that has not fallen to Sanskrit in its hegemonic ride.
Kathir Krishnamurthi ·
A lot of Tamil brahmins feel the same; they may not know Sanskrit; they consider it is their heritage. They can learn it if they are really interested...I do not see overwhelming interest matching their emotional attachment. .But expecting everybody else to promote it by learning will not get much support. Some Sanskrit degree programs do not have enough enrollment to justify the funding...
 Aparna Krishnan @Kathir Krishnamurthi 
A. I have clearly stated that I am for local languages first and foremost 
B. English-fluent is the currest marker of supremacy and power, and could that be somehow challenged, i am in.If we retain it, to me it stays a necessary evil, because the hegemony will stay set in stone C. No son of a priest wants to be a priest and to keep moaning that priesthood is a reserved occupation is simply diversionary. D. Sanskrit anchors ayurveda practice, and to keep calling it 'heritage language' after this has been repeated ten times, is wasting time. 

Aparna Krishnan Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Sanskrit can stay optional, but needs to be available, as it stores a knowlege we would be very unwise to lose.
Kathir Krishnamurthi · 
We do not need to worry. The central government spends a lot of money for Sanskrit.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan we are not resisting options but imposition.
Aparna Krishnan fair enough.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan Tamilnadu has a lot more people well versed in Sanskrit than elsewhere. This despite the opposition to imposition. We know where to draw the distinction.
దామోదర రెడ్డి language is not just for those reserved jobs only right?, that is another debate which is not related to language.. but related to varna system.. even if U change language, that reservation will still there. bhasha is all about knowledge, j~naana it provides through it.. vast amount of indiginous vij~naan, ayurveda, mainly aatma samgnaana, puraaNas, shastras,vedanta,vedas are in sanskrit. we cannot get that divine feeling , acurate meaning in translations, just like i cannot imagine vemana padyas in language other than telugu.. , And more than that it provides largest vocabulary, and divinely designed form , and root shabas.. so that when ever my feelings are overwhelmed, and cannot get words to express, sanskrit gives shelter. Sanskrit act as base for all civilisation, languages providing solid base, from which we can always take words, knowledge.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Sanskrit is not the base of all civilization. Please with these fallacious arguments, you do disservice to the language itself.

It was a language used to document stuff and was written in 46 scripts at one point of time. Prakrit and later Pali were the contemporary languages in the areas where Sanskrit was prevalent. In other areas, only in educational institutions it was used.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Point is why force to learn it when our own languages are dying.
Aparna Krishnan 'Force' is a strange word we need to understand. Are villages that are malnourished being 'forced' to pay for cable TV connections ? Is it 'free choice' ? We need to go deeper into understanding manufactured choices. And then maybe what seems 'forced' may not be very different from there apparent free choices.
Aparna Krishnan We need a larger perspective of what is good for the land. Local language power is good. The treasure of information and more stored in Sanskrit is good. A community having hegemony over a powerful language is bad. We need to look afresh maybe and choose wise and pragmatic ground rules.
Aparna Krishnan Sometimes what is in the larger good but goes against a present mindless trend could do with some short term controls - and even as I write this i realize this is a rather debateable statement. And yet - seeing the havoc that TV ads are causing in villages, I would vote for a 'draconian' ban on TV adsm were that to be put up on vote !
Aparna Krishnan Similarly for local languages and sanskit, both. i would wish for a negative mark to be given to patrons to english to give these languages a chance.
Aparna Krishnan And rather than 'ban sanskrit', i would ban the 'right of only brahmins to sanskrit' !
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan force is when govts mandates it as a compulsory subject. Let's not beat around the bush. Who is paying for that cost? The state govts and the people. I'd rather teach Tamil, English and feed the kids through midday meal scheme than teach an extra subject and cut that budget.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Aparna Krishnan who is asking for a ban? We come for societies that are multi cultural and that embrace diversity unlike the ones up north who call us anti national if we stand up for our languages!
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Without economic opportunities created, no one will want to learn no matter how rich a language is.

With the only jobs reserved for one group of community, what's the point?

Take your own village, what good will it be if the kids there learn Sanskrit; they won't be considered for the archakas jobs at Tirumala solely on the basis of caste.

Meanwhile the TTDC is hiring about 200 people for those posts, the money for which comes from the torn pockets of your village kids.
Aparna Krishnan I am personally looking at sanskrit for proper ayurveda learning. And other learnings. Priests are not in my mind, or in the mind of the people of my village ! They aspire for 'police jobs', and not for priesthood. I think we would also do well to stop carrying the 'priest burden' !
Aparna Krishnan Yes, food and livlihoods come first. And Tamil/Telugu should be compulsory. Local language primacy. Sanskrit can be optional, but should be available imo.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula Yes that's the point. Optional vs imposed.
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar My observation is, any person who has studied the Vedas and the 6 Vedic schools of thoughts has turned away from todays ritualistic caste based hinduism.
I have heard a few "dharma guru" preaching against reading the Vedas and upanishada because it "confuses" the reader.

Maybe, the best way to achieve a caste less society is to commoditize what is now the exclusive domain of the gurus...
Rakesh Dogra actually it takes away their importance if people directly understand the knowledge and find that its very simple and practical as compared to artificially generated complexities by the so called thekedars of religion, so they discourage people from doing not a Sanskrit scholar, infact hardly know much but I know its one of the most scientific and pure languages grammatically and most ancient knowledge can be read if one knows it..
Vijayvithal Jahagirdar Aparna Krishnan It becomes difficult to preach the superiority on one's school of thought when the veda's and upanishad preach otherwise....
While I may not get the statements proscribing Veda's online, here is one rejecting all purana's dealing with Shiva as a "path to hell" :)

Uttaradi Math - Sri Jagadguru Madhwacharya Moola Maha Samsthanam Official Site|By rrachuri
Fer de Lance · 
@Aparana Krishnan : Where can we get this Vrkshayuveda book from?
Aparna Krishnan I really dont know. Can find out.
Aparna Krishnan
Aparna Krishnan There is also mrgayurveda for animals. Must be very interesting. Because i use on our dog the same ayurvedic medicines we use, and the response is swift. There would be a treasure trove there, were someone to read the original texts and bring it out to public sphere.
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula
Komakkambedu Himakiran Anugula all of this has already been translated into English and available in the public domain. The site I have given above is run by the Govt.
Aparna Krishnan
Aparna Krishnan This summarizes the text. "Vrksayurveda is a giant work consisting of twelve chapters namely Bhumi nirupana,
Bijoptivithi, Padapavivaksa, Ropana
vidhana, Nise canavidhi, Posana vidhi,
Drumaraksa, Taru Cikitsa, Upavanakriya,
Nivasa sanna taru Subhasubha Laksana,
Taru Mahima and Citrikarana". But yes, the original would also be translated somewhere. And yet, as I see in ayurveda, the english translations are best not totally depended on, and essentials of sanskrit to follow the original is important.

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